Speaker 1 00:00
You've said that saying no to the wrong client is actually a growth strategy. How so?
Speaker 2 00:09
If you take on work that you know isn't going to be successful, that you know you can't add
value to, or that is being done for the wrong reasons, then it consumes so much energy and so
much focus, and even once it's done, you'll tend to ruminate on it a little bit. Whereas saying
that's not work that I want to focus on, that's not work I'm going to be good at, frees us up to
focus on the work that we're great at. It's a little bit problematic to try to fix people because it
assumes they're broken, which of course they're again they're very rarely actually broken. I
think it's when we look at how can we build systems where people thrive, where we're
productive and profitable, and people get to do great work that we start to get really
meaningful outcomes. We bring the real world knowledge around the commercial reality. We
work with NFPs and government as well. It's all money in, money out, and we can't do training
for training's sake. We can't, you know, fund every idea we have, and so marrying that
knowledge around that with then how does the people piece fit in that. How can we develop
people's skills and competencies so that we support our strategy and get there a bit quicker or
a bit more efficiently? But as I say, whilst being deeply respectful of the fact that we are talking
about humans, and I do think that you can do both those things-the you know moral idea
around respecting people and being very profitable, I think, can absolutely coexist.
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Speaker 1 01:47
Welcome back to CEO Behind the Scenes. I'm Lara Nasserian, and today we're exploring some
of the biggest assumptions businesses make about leadership, learning, and growth, and why
many of them may no longer hold up. Joining me is Carly Kremen, CEO of Dynamic Leadership
Programs Australia and Crescom ANZ. Carly has built her career helping organizations develop
stronger leaders, but she's also become known for challenging some of the long-standing
beliefs within the leadership development industry. In this episode, we'll discuss why trying to
fix people may be the wrong approach, what leaders are getting wrong about growth, how the
learning and development sector is being disrupted, and why saying no to the wrong clients
can be one of the most powerful business strategies of all. Please enjoy, Carly. Welcome to the
show. Thank you very much. I'm so looking forward to having this conversation with you. And
one of the things that we briefly touched on before we pressed record is this idea around
moving away from the fix the person type of ethos, what does that mean, and why do you
believe that this has become such a dominant mindset in leadership development?
Speaker 2 03:15
I think it's been dominant for for a few different reasons. That it's a lot. If we just have to fix an
individual, that's a lot easier than having to fix a system. So I think we gravitate towards that. It
also means that we can blame someone, and it's not, you know, a bigger problem that doesn't
have someone that we can make it their fault, and it makes it a lot more complex. I think if if
we look at it as being more of a systems issue, one of the things I talk about a lot is where I'm
not panning resilience training. I think it has its place, but it does frustrate me when people are
saying the problem is that our workforce is not resilient enough. What we'll do is we'll train the
individuals to be more resilient, and then it'll fix the problem. Because that's assuming that it's
the issue of the individual contributor, which it almost never is. You know, that's a piece of it.
That's very rarely the full problem, which means that then we're doing a lot of training that
doesn't really fix anything, and it kind of tarnishes a whole industry when when we're doing
that. I also think that it's a little bit problematic to try to fix people because it assumes they're
broken, which of course they're again they're very rarely actually broken. I think it's when we
look at how can we build systems where people thrive, where we're productive and profitable,
and people get to do great work. That we start to get really meaningful outcomes.
Speaker 1 04:46
Yeah, and why do you believe that this fix the person mindset is so prominent? Why do you
believe that that's something that industries tend to almost default to? I
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Speaker 2 04:57
think it's two sided. One is that it is. The easier belief. If it's individuals, that's less scary. We
don't have to change our systems. It's definitely not us. It's the the other, and so it's an easier
belief to hold. I also think that the L and D industry has pushed that idea for a sustained period
of time as well, because that's how products were kind of structured was around that that
concept, and and it's just kind of ended up being this core belief that gets pulled through
without much thought about it.
Speaker 1 05:30
And so let's talk about what the alternate view and approach is. Then, if leaders weren't trying
to look to people to fix them, what would they be focusing on instead, what would that look
like?
Speaker 2 05:43
Yeah, I think it's really that root cause analysis of looking at what is it in the system that meant
that this behavior is present, that meant that these outcomes are likely or happening often.
And so, one of the examples I use with that is around bullying, where yes, there are some
people who are just unpleasant people who, you know, choose to live their lives that that way.
But if you're having bullying happen a lot in an organization or even just frequently, then we'd
really encourage organizations to be saying, "What is it in our work environment that means
that this behavior is okay? That this behavior is walked past that. In some instances, is actually
what thrives. Of is it that there isn't an accountability structure? Is it our ways of working mean
that there's pressure compression that people are more likely to be acting that way, and it's
you know excused in that environment? What is it in our in our systems of work that mean that
this behavior has become the norm.
Speaker 1 06:43
And when you start to look at those more systemic types of issues and the root cause analysis,
if you will, in terms of what's actually creating that as a culture, as a behavior, what are you
seeing in terms of this shift in mindset and philosophy, and the impact that it has on constructs
such as culture, performance, etc.
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Speaker 2 07:06
I think that's a really interesting question because it's correlated to a lot of different things.
Fundamentally, that form of systems thinking is very closely correlated to high-performing
teams. That you see other things that are friction points to performance come out when you
start thinking and unpacking a lot of the ways that we work in that way, and so we see teams
tend to not gravitate quite so much to blame, but have accountability. You know that you can
still have those things, and it's important to have the accountability, but not the blame. And
then people are more free to experiment, to innovate, to challenge key assumptions. And when
we're doing that, we're going to cope better with change fundamentally. And so organizations
are just becoming much more robust when they do that. We have cultures that tend to thrive
and perform much higher as well, and you have a workforce that has a capability around really
interrogating the ways that they work and what we assume to be true, and being able to adapt
to when the things that we think are true turn out not to be. Which we've had a lot of those
really fundamental things challenged in recent years.
Speaker 1 08:23
No, that is so fascinating. It really is something that I wanted to touch on, and something that
I've heard you speak to previously. You've said that saying no to the wrong client is actually a
growth strategy. How so?
Speaker 2 08:42
And I say that from a very privileged position, right? Because I do say that to particularly when
people are starting their businesses and things that that there's a lot of power in saying no to
something you know is not right, and that is hard to do when you don't have a full client book.
But I do think it's important for a growth strategy because if you take on work that you know
isn't going to be successful, that you know you can't add value to, or that is being done for the
wrong reasons, then it consumes so much energy and so much focus. And even once it's done,
you'll tend to ruminate on it a little bit because people in our space want to do a good job
generally, and so you'll revisit it and think, "God, that was an awful thing, and I'm not proud of
that work. Whereas saying, "Do you know that's not work that I want to focus on? That's not
work I'm going to be good at, or you know, one of the the things we get inquiry about, for
example, is using 360s as like surrogate performance management, of saying you know that's
not really what we do, but there's other people who can help you with that. Frees us up to focus
on the work that we're great at, that people want us to keep doing, and it just. Keeps our
energy up, our focus up, and it you don't end up with those kind of burn case studies that you
know Australia is a small place people talk.
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Speaker 1 10:11
Oh yeah, and I think what you touched on in terms of just the energetic load and the emotional
load that comes with the work itself, because, like you mentioned, there is something around
the physical time and effort that you put into working with a client, but the energetic load and
emotional load can sometimes be the thing that actually consumes us the most. For a leader
that's listening to this, that may be in that exact predicament, they they may notice that
they're taking on certain clients that may not be the the correct aligned clients for them, but
their books aren't filled, and it's tempting in that moment to to take on that additional work.
What advice would you give to them?
Speaker 2 10:59
I have to be careful in in the advice because financial reality is financial reality. That sometimes
you have to do work you don't like, you're not great at, and does you know consume
disproportionate energy because you have to pay a bill and we have to pay our bills. So first
step is pay your bills, but then once that base has been dealt with, that I think being really,
really clear on how you add value to people, so that you recognize the non-ideal work when it
comes in, and having a great network of other people who are great at that stuff, so that you
can be respectful to the person who's come to ask you for for work. You don't have to say no.
You're a bad client. You can say that's not our bread and butter. I think you'll get more uplift
from this person and give the referral so that you're kind of respecting everyone. You can still
feel okay about it, and you can be really, really clear on what your strengths are and how
you're going to be adding value. That will actually also make you better at sales because once
you're clear on those things, you can articulate your value proposition much more easily to
prospects.
Speaker 1 12:09
Absolutely, I could not agree with that more. I would love if you could take us back to the early
days because I'm curious to know what actually was it that propelled you to start your own
company to begin with. What was it that you were seeing in the industry at that time that you
felt was missing, or that you felt that you could do differently?
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Speaker 2 12:34
I think I'm a terrible employee, a really terrible employee. So I probably had limited options in
terms of what my path forward was going to be. I wouldn't employ me. I started with a you
know a management consultancy, which was great and did very well. But in that, I became
aware that really the only piece of the puzzle that was having a major impact was the people
piece. That if you had your people strategy and implementation, and and the people in your
business were 100% on board and engaged, the market would forgive pricing being a bit off,
your marketing being a little bit off, some of your other elements of your strategy being a bit
off, but if you didn't have the people piece right, the rest of it was never going to be really
effective anyway. And so that's where DLPA came from was saying, well, let's just focus on that
and do it in a way that is commercially savvy, but also really respectful of the fact that we're
talking about humans and sentient beings with their own agendas and needs and thoughts and
ideas and beliefs and how can we bring all of that together so that everyone thrives? Hopefully,
that's what we do.
Speaker 1 13:51
And so, when you talk about the unique, you know, your unique value proposition and and what
it is that you actually do for someone that's listening to this for the first time and may not be
familiar with your business. How would you describe the the impact and the value that you're
providing to your clients through the work that you're doing?
Speaker 2 14:10
We bring the real world knowledge around the commercial reality. We work with NFPs and
government as well. It's all money in, money out, and we can't do training for training's sake.
We can't, you know, fund every idea we have, and so marrying that knowledge around that
with then how does the people piece fit in that? How can we develop people's skills and
competencies so that we support our strategy and get there a bit quicker or a bit more
efficiently, but as I say, whilst being deeply respectful of the fact that we are talking about
humans, and I do think that you can do both those things-the the you know moral idea around
respecting people and being very profitable-I think can absolutely coexist. I think that's one of
the things that that we do really, really well.
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Speaker 1 15:02
Bridging the gap between those two things that they don't have to be mutually exclusive
constructs, but they can coexist. I think that's a really interesting perspective as well, because
a lot of people do have the belief that in order to be, you know, if you're kind, then you can't be
profitable or you can't sort of stand for something, and I think it's a really interesting space that
that you exist in. Which brings me to my next question, which was earlier on in your career, you
described yourself as having more of a command and control style of leadership. What was it
that got you to change your perspective or approach when it came to how you lead? I
Speaker 2 15:48
suppose two main things, and I think people who knew me earlier in my career would say that
was quite the understatement. Just then, I was a bit bullshit in in those days, it was a different
time. Is the other thing I'd point to. It was a different time. Two main things. One was that I
myself became aware that it wasn't terribly effective. That it took a lot of energy to constantly
be commanding and controlling. That everything was by force, which means that you have to
maintain the force to get things done, and there's no momentum or inertia within within your
work group. Everything has is done by force and maintained by force. So it wasn't very
effective, and I was I was getting quite exhausted. And then the other thing is that I was
blessed with some people who gave me some very direct feedback, which I didn't enjoy hearing
at the time, but I recognized the truth of it, and subsequently went about, you know, changing
and finding something more effective.
Speaker 1 16:51
And what did that process look like in terms of uncovering your own unique leadership style?
Was it a process of trial and error? You know, was it just trying different approaches and
strategies, and then really feeling into what landed the most and felt most aligned for you?
What what was that experience like?
Speaker 2 17:11
I don't even know how much I spent on courses. A lot, a lot, a lot. I did every course you could,
and I think I really did the work too around looking at those core beliefs, looking at where the
behavior was coming from, why I was leaning into different things, and then it it really was just
trial and error of you know change a little incremental changes so you don't blow up the thing,
but incremental changes around what if I do it this way, what if I do it that way, and I had some
great coaches through that as well to support through those changes and figuring out what I
actually wanted as well.
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Speaker 1 17:55
No, I really appreciate hearing your journey around that. You believe that the learning and
development industry is being disrupted and is going through, you know, a period of change.
What is changing from your experience and from what you're seeing, and why should leaders
be paying attention to that?
Speaker 2 18:18
Everything is changing. Everything is changing. I mean, it's. I do try to have the odd
conversation without talking about AI, but it is it it's central that AI for us as a as a business. So
to put it in context, DLPA has spent a lot of time building 165 modules that you can configure
into a bespoke program, so they're on a 75% frame. You 75 to 80% frame, and then you
customize the rest. So that's a huge amount of work has gone into that library. AI has meant
that content is not the commodity anymore in L and D, that if it exists, it can therefore be
predicted by AI, and that has changed what's on market. It's changed a lot of consumer
expectation. People expect things quicker, cheaper, and aren't necessarily that as focused on
the quality of the materials, if I can say it that way. What people want out of L and D has
changed. There's a lot more around self servicing as well. So people will go do bite size learning
online, or they're using ChatGPT, they're using Claude, and so forth to actually do the education
and build the artifacts, and you know all all of these things. So it's a huge disruption. At the
same time, we also have economic pressures, which mean that L and D is one of the first things
to fall always in economic downturn. I don't necessarily agree with that choice, but it is
absolutely for a lot of organizations on the nice to have, and so it's one of the first things to go.
So a lot of organizations have. You know, zero to not much budget for this space now, and so
these pressures coming on, and then I think the other thing is just the sheer number of
practitioners because of that downward economic pressure. We've had a lot of people go
through redundancies, and so they're starting up these small organizations, and so there's a a
lot of practitioners out there as well, which makes it it challenging to differentiate on market as
well because we're substantively selling the same thing. I think leaders ought to be paying very
close attention to that because now more than ever, L and D needs to be outcomes focused. In
my view, that not training for training's sake, not I should do a difficult conversations course.
But what is the problem that we're trying to solve? What is the outcome that we're looking for
that would mean this is successful? And then build back from that, because it's unlikely to just
be workshops like it used to be, or an offsite, or or whatever it is, it's going to be a much more
complex program, and I think leaders need to be really focusing on that outcome and not
starting with the methodology in mind.
Speaker 1 21:10
Starting with the outcome first, yes, and then finding the right aligned methodology program
that supports that. Yeah, put the
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Speaker 2 21:19
money you have available. Yes, and and it's okay. There's so much that you can do for not
much money now. So the not having that be the limiting factor, I think, is important.
Speaker 1 21:29
Absolutely, you recently launched Crestcom into ANZ, and you also have a new book coming
out later this year, your computer is trying to eat you. What's the big conversation that you're
hoping this would start for business leaders, and and why now?
Speaker 2 21:52
The book is about. I think that we are at a really important societal point that my observation
would be: a lot of us are giving our agency to notionally computers, but those computers are
owned and run by corporations and and people who we don't know, and that there is a lot
being traded away that I don't think has been fully thought through, and that it's fundamentally
changing the way we interact as humans. And so, what I'm hoping comes out of the the book is
conversations around that and choices around. Well, what what do we want? If if that's what we
want, that's fine. But just making the conscious decision around how do we want to be as
humans and and communities and and countries and and globally going forward, because I do
think we're at a really critical decision point.
Speaker 1 22:57
Absolutely, I'm I'm really interested about the the title in particular. I think it it really grabbed
me when I heard that that was the title of your books. It's fantastic. So Carly, here at CEO
Behind the Scenes, we do wrap up all of our interviews with the same two signature questions.
So the first question I wanted to ask you is: What is one thing that you've changed your mind
about recently, and why? I think I change my mind every day.
Speaker 2 23:30
Do you know it? And the world is is so so fast moving. You know that I think all of our
assumptions are are shifting. I think a key thing that I've changed my mind about was that I
really thought that government intervention wasn't necessary for looking at our entry level
roles. Like a lot of the entry level roles are being done away with through AI interventions and
things, and and I thought that private business would kind of sort it out and develop alternate
pathways. And I think recently, I I think we need the government to do something about that
because private business isn't doing it.
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Speaker 1 24:16
That's a big one. And question two is what's one thing that you've not changed your mind
about, a belief that you want to share to help others live or lead better.
Speaker 2 24:28
That one is a little bit, a little bit easier. It's one of those things that I know people find it
laughable and old-fashioned and everything else, and I don't want to change my mind about it.
I believe that people are fundamentally good, and that if we give them space to be good, they'll
be better, and we'll all be better. And that yes, we have capacity to do bad things and and less
ideal things, but fundamentally, I think we want good things.
Speaker 1 24:53
Yeah, that's a beautiful message. Thank you for sharing that, Carly. I've so enjoyed this
conversation and. Your perspective about leadership growth, the future of learning and
development. Is there anything that we haven't covered, or any final thoughts that you'd like to
leave our audience with today?
Speaker 2 25:12
We have covered it a little bit, but I just think really emphasizing that learning and
development for people in an organization is a reason they'll stay. It's their opportunity to add
more value to an organization. So, from my perspective, it's fundamentally a strategic pillar of
every organization. And so, really putting the effort into-and it doesn't have to be money-but
putting the effort into how that is going to work in your organization. What you want your
leaders to actually be doing and how they can be more effective at it, I think, is what's going to
decide which organizations thrive and which don't.
Speaker 1 25:51
Well said, Carly. Thank you so much for joining me for this conversation. It's been such a
pleasure to have you on the show.
Speaker 2 25:58
Thank you so much.
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Speaker 1 25:59
and to our audience, thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed this show, please
subscribe, rate, and review the show, and also share this episode with someone who you know
would really benefit from hearing Carly's expertise and insights that she has shared with us.
Thank you again for joining us, and we'll see you next time on CEO: Behind the Scenes.