00:00
It wasn't until we were kind of like in and around the business, I don't think we realized what kind of reputation our father had, stemming off from grandfather within the community, the whole group shares that group culture in that way, 70% of your life is actually spent more with your work colleagues than it is with your family for whatever reason. Within a business, your family values and group culture can change very, very quickly. We do our homework first in the local area, what's wanted and needed there, what's building? How is the market? That's just how we've been successful.
00:38
What does it take to build a business that lasts not just decades, but generations. I'm Lara necessan, and this is CEO behind the scenes today. We're going inside a third generation Australian Building Company, one that started with a bricklayers trowel in 1950 and has grown into a trusted name in home building across New South Wales. But this isn't just a story about construction, it's about legacy, family discipline and the decisions that determine whether a business survives or scales. Joining me are John Hibbard, CEO and Michael Hibbard, General Manager of hebard homes. Please enjoy. John, Michael, welcome to the show. Thank you. Thank you. I'm so thrilled to have you both here in studio with us. We're happy to
01:33
be here, and I really wanted to start at the beginning, because your grandfather was laying bricks in 1950
01:44
what does that origin story mean to you? The history of it has always
01:51
it's always been ingrained in us, but at the same time, it wasn't enforced on us. We, we kind of like evolved into the family business and the family history, appreciating what our grandfather and our father did to kind of like make it work the company that it is today. We were very influenced at the time, when we were growing up between the Christian morals that our grandfather instilled in us as Australian businessmen and just with total honesty and integrity. And what was great was that he had a British trowel in one hand, and he preached at the pulpit every Sunday with a Bible in the other
02:38
they're kind of like our roots. And, you know he, you know, you know, being a world war two veteran, and you know, an Aussie male, he was ruthless. He was he was a tough man. But Help, help the fellow Aussie within in any situation. I it was, that was our major our major influence, sort of growing up when he came back from World War Two, there was a massive shortage in the housing industry, like there were 900,000
03:14
Australian servicemen serving and and so what was back at home, there wasn't many tradesmen that knew how to swing a hammer, and the factories that actually had to build, that were building building material, they were forced to build tanks and weapons and bullets. So when he came back, it wasn't very well educated man, so he didn't really have a choice of what he was going to do when he got back. He could either be a farmer or a brick layer. And, you know, before he found God and and started preaching, he was an absolute rat bag. Absolute rat bag. He He held the record at the pub for sculling 27 beers, and still had the ability to walk a straight line. Wow. Yeah. So then, after finding God, he cleaned himself up, and then, and then, like Michael said, he was the local in the local town. He was known as the brick layer that had a Bible in one hand and bricks trail on the other. And he brick laid for many, many years, like a long time, until the point he thought, Okay, I want to become the builder myself, you know. So he still did the manual labor, but he sold houses at the same time as doing the manual labor, and that's when he built the first Hibbard home for a client back in Narromine in 1968 Wow. What an incredible story, Mike, you touched on something, which is that you grew up around it, but it wasn't an expectation that you would be part of the family business. What was the moment that made each of you decide that this was something that you wanted to get involved in and that you wanted to take on? Our Father gave us a choice. We.
05:00
Joke about it these days that he's he kind of tricked us Condes into it. Well, we kind of joke about that, but it was, it was actually a good con job, because grandfather handed the business over to him in the early 80s, and he pursued his grandfather, sort of more pursued the because he'd actually built a bit of an empire, a beautiful religious empire, in relation to the ministry, expanded that overseas. So he handed the business over to my father. We weren't very good at school,
05:33
and, you know, I think it was because it was just we didn't see any value there. So we weren't academics, but we were, we wanted to. We actually wanted to join the military. We wanted to go into the army. And I think that was grandfather's influence, even though he was, he was kind of against it. Yeah, you know, it's like, well, you did it, grand pop, so we wanted to, we want to do it as well. And then our father came to us, and he just said, look nicely, saying we're not set for uni degrees, right?
06:06
Yeah, and we wanted to leave. We wanted to leave at
06:10
in year 10, not in year 12, right? So if you pursued through to your HSC, that meant that you could actually then go to uni or something like that. But because we wanted to leave in year 10, he said, Look, I can get you guys carpentry apprenticeships so you can at least be a licensed carpenter and pursue anything that you want to do. But just do that for us, if you can just, just do a four year apprenticeship, and then you've got at least some kind of credential, some kind of ticket behind you to go and pursue whatever you want in that four year apprenticeship. It wasn't until we were kind of like in and around the business, even, even with the subcontractor trades that were, you know, building that, you know, doing all the physical work of, you know, building a home, I don't think we realized what kind of reputation our father had stemming off from grandfather within the community. Yeah, because the trades, the trades and supplies themselves that actually make up a home are so involved, and there's there's so many involved, that when it comes to the builder, as the principal contractor, he holds all the responsibility of everything that they do to build a home, and everything that they supply that goes into it, to exchange that with the actual customer. Now, when you're a carpenter, they you kind of learn a little bit of
07:38
other skills, of other trades. So it's, it is, it is a specialized type of TAFE course to be the carpenter, but you do learn, like a little bit of brick laying, a little bit of plumbing and all that kind of stuff and and so we actually really got to know what
07:56
our our own legacy was about, just from the start of our carpentry apprenticeships, and then from that point, it was kind of like, personally, I was sold after the first two years in my apprenticeship, where it was like, Yeah, I'm going to push through these next two years for my Carpentry and Joinery apprenticeship, and I'm going straight into the business. Because I'd seen and seen, I can't speak on behalf of Johnny, but all I know is, is that by the time we'd actually finished both our apprenticeships, we were sold and done and dusted. We were ready? Yeah, we were ready to go.
08:28
That's a good question, because it's a great question. We've we've never just, we've never discussed this. No, we haven't
08:36
we. We wanted to. So when our father gave us the option he gave us. He said, I'll give you a sum of money. And I'm not going to say what money that was, but the sum it was, but it wasn't, I mean, it was a lot back then, but it's not very much now and then, you know, you can go off and do what you want, because we either want to go in the military or I wanted to run a music store, so Wow. So I don't know I wanted to do that, but anyway, it was just me at the time. And the thing it was is that what Michael said then we pushed through the first two years, because the first year in the first the first and second year, you didn't have the work cover on site, really, back then, we got bullied pretty badly.
09:16
We had to learn how to fight, didn't we? Yeah, because it was like a daily thing, but it was character building. So we don't care about that. We wanted to actually maybe do our apprenticeship through the military. But then that was, Dad was saying that was more of a commercial basis. I need you in residential so. So he put a stop to that. And then,
09:36
yeah, once we got to our third and fourth year, we really started enjoying it. We really thought, okay, you know, we we really understand how this works. We understand the job site works. There was a lot of subcontractors that worked for my father that didn't like my dad. There was a lot of subcontractors that worked for my dad that absolutely loved my dad, and they're still with us to this day. They're still working with us, even even past from our our carpentries, apprenticeships, you know. But.
10:00
But
10:01
I wasn't ready to go into the office when I got my ticket, because I was enjoying it so much. I'm like, you know, wanted to do a few more years, but that's when he invited us in. And what you do in the building industry on the job site to what you do in a business, in the building industry inside an office, chalk and she's totally it's like a whole new apprenticeship again, yeah, how you communicate, how you read and study a plan, how you cost a house, how you look at it. Completely different, completely two different worlds. So it was like a whole new apprenticeship all started in which, again, you know, we pushed through and started work our way up and started really enjoy. I love hearing that, and I love the synergies in how you both came to that realization independently, but together as well. We were given allowance by our father to actually have our own determinisms, to make our own choices. That's what was good about it. But he was
10:56
he knew he had us.
10:58
He knew, can I just share that he now, my father was a lot different, but he,
11:04
again, you know, highly dyslexic, left school at 14. Unbelievable with numbers. You just incredible. Didn't, couldn't really read and write. But when he sees numbers, he's just, he can see, he can pick up a spreadsheet now, and it's just the whole page is full of numbers, and he knows there's, there's a number incorrect by two seconds. By looking at it like, very good on that side, but just really struggled at school. So at 14 years old, you know, he's throwing bricks around the job site with grandfather. He's so small and skinny, someone actually called the cops and thought it was sort of child abuse or some at some level, you know. So, but anyway, they didn't really do nothing. Just kept working, and it all worked, and then he worked up from there. But when grandfather handed the business over to dad, he had wit. He had the gift of the gap. You know, there were two major builders that was selling at least 15 to 20 homes a year in our local area, which is a lot my dad in the first year, end up selling 80 homes that year, taking over the business. So there's an entrepreneur, and there's someone there that would just went to expand it. And Michael only, only found out at this only a couple of years ago, shared it very recent. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's an incredible initiation. And way that he was able to take over the business and continue to lead it. And I want to get into all of that in in this conversation, I do want to ask you first, though, what is something from those early days in the business that you remember that still shows up in the way that you operate now, it's funny because I'm going way back. I remember, you know, Sunday after church, you know, Michael and I going, and my dad opening display homes on a Sunday afternoon, and he'd work seven days, but I remember just the way he would sit there and interact with the customers, and just by his mannerism and just how, you know, honest, and just how he would do the deal and get that contract signed and have people and just really get them exactly what they wanted. You know, Michael and I would be running around in and out the rooms and, you know, around the backyard and just playing like we're just playing in our own house. But, you know, this is a display home, and I remember many times just going through the garage where dad had the office set up, and it's just something that, you know, we've witnessed for many, many years, that hasn't changed. It's just the interaction and the honesty with the client. What do you think, Mike, what? Well, I think though, what not? What's not, what hasn't changed since we've been in the business is the group culture, the family group group culture. It doesn't matter how large we've expanded where we're kind of like on paper, considered a corporate business, but with family, family values and family culture. One example of that I don't know any of our staff that don't have Johnny's or my phone number direct line. It's like we're at the we're at the top of our organization. Now, if I got a call from the receptionist on the weekend or something like that, it's kind of like we because we work in regional towns and regional communities, we haven't done a, you know, when corporate companies can sort of, they start to, as they start to expand, they start to disconnect. Yes, that hasn't changed since we've, since we've gone into the business. That also leads down to
14:35
our trades and our suppliers, yeah, like we've had trades that work for other builders, and they just feel like a number, you know, without these trades, without these suppliers, all the way down, that everybody that's involved in our company, we like to have that culture flow right through it, you know, all the way down, and not make them feel like they're a number. Yeah, we've actually got a service department, which I'd like to touch on as well.
15:00
Because it's, it does define us as far as being
15:04
a difference in in development, developers or in builders within the industry. I've got one handyman that I mean. He just, he just texted me last weekend saying, you know, can I borrow your trailer? Because I need to move home. I said, you know where it is, bro, just go and pick it up. And that was it. So I think that's just a better example to towards the the family culture has not changed, and I kind of, I don't get defensive on it, but I certainly do protect it when it comes to onboarding new staff, if there starts to be a bit of a big brother, type of clicky mentality that starts to form within, you know, an office environment, because they do occur like you can't deny it, you know. And so the good thing about it is, is that the whole group shares that group culture in that way, and they also protect it to that degree as well. Because, you know, I don't want to get all statistical,
16:08
but 70% and it's a true stat, 70% of your life is actually spent more with your work colleagues than it is with your family. It's a true stat. So it's one that I haven't forgotten, and and I know that it's one that with a lot of people sort of coming and going
16:28
for whatever reason within a business, your family values and group culture can change very, very quickly. And so it's one of the one things that,
16:39
from just I hold very valuable within our within our organization. So what you're saying, bro is you lent him the trailer, but you didn't offer to help him to move.
16:51
Yes, like, yeah,
16:58
and by the way, it's my trailer. Yeah,
17:03
that's been parked at my house for the last I
17:07
haven't come and picked it up.
17:13
Let me ask you this. Then, what do you believe has been the key to cultivating and maintaining that culture over such an extended period of time when a lot of companies do tend to scale and then lose the essence of who they are, but you've really paid a lot of care and attention to not just cultivating it, but maintaining it over generations. What do you think has been the key to that success? Very simple. A lot of companies can have, like bonus systems and all this kind of stuff, and reward on performance, acknowledging that everybody is all a part of one company to achieve one goal, and acknowledging their part in that is, is is so important. It's so important. It's kind of second nature to Johnny and I like when we came in here. We like to know who like what do you do here, and what do you do there, and what do you do there? Because we, we never forget, every single person that's in our organization has a purpose, and that purpose is to drive towards the company goal. And we, and you know, the the the
18:31
workings of day in and day out, week in and week out, towards
18:37
any goal that we actually set within our industry, we do achieve them, but we always make sure that we're acknowledging each individual that has something to do with that. Because it takes a team. It definitely takes a team. Hibart homes, as our brand is the is obviously the one that actually builds the reputation. But we we we just make sure that what we found, as far as our family culture is concerned, it's always been solidified based on that we highly acknowledge each individual person within the organization, nearly daily, weekly, daily. We just check in and just how's it going? Because every person that we have,
19:24
they're experts in what they do, and they need acknowledgement on the fact that they are actually experts. So it's pretty simple. Michael is extremely good at finding the right people, you know, in our industry, obviously, it you have to get the group's agreement with the company goal. But not only do you get the group's agreement with our company goal of where we're going and what we want to do, you've got to find the people that's going to agree with that, and he's extremely good at finding those people, because there are people that clock watches that just want to do this hour to this hour and get paid for that. That's fine.
20:00
It, but there are people that really, really need a purpose and really want to be able to get on board and go. Where are you guys going? We're going this way. Well, I'm going to join you as and I'm going to help you do that, you know, and I don't believe that's hard to do, but it does
take a specific skill that Michael has a lot better than I do, at finding those people that like, yeah, yeah. This is a group member here, yeah, yeah. It sounds simple, but sometimes simple isn't necessarily easy.
20:30
That's all right. If I wasn't interested in people, the best kind of people and the worst kind of people, like, if I wasn't interested in the worst kind of people or the best kind of people,
20:42
it would make my job a lot harder? Yeah, it's sort of like because I'm actually interested in human behavior, yeah. And you know, it's just made my my job a lot easier in that regards, of course. And it makes sense as to why each of you are in your own Yes. Yeah. Showed me this beautiful video before we press record, in terms of like, your your individual journeys, but also the fact that you really own each of your areas of expertise. So talk to me about that. Like, how did you really come to own each of your unique skills and really identify, you know, this is what Michael's really good at versus, this is where Johnny really excels. Do you feel like that organically occurred over that's the way you can explain it, organically how that occurred. Because I just Michael was just extremely good at selling and, and, and I just love building. I remember probably about three different office moves ago,
21:51
so I can sort of say
21:54
an office move based on a timeline. I remember looking up at a whiteboard, and I looked up at this whiteboard, and it was in the hallway. It was in the hallway when we were when we had our office down in the jetty. And I looked up at it, and
22:12
here's my twin brother. He was really going hard at the acquisitions of these blocks of land. I kind of, like looked at it, and I went, Wow, I know nothing about that. He's, he's my brother. He's actually, he's going, and he's buying different blocks of land. This is quite a while ago, and he's, he's, he's, he's filling it up. And what he's doing is he's actually creating
22:41
my division sales listings, because
22:47
he goes and finds blocks of lands. He picks the right type of
22:52
design that will fit the block of land quite nice, and he'll do all the costings and everything like that. And then he would come back and ask the sales division, what would this sell for in the market to then calculate to see to make sure that we were going to reach our profit margin? See, I look at that, and I just think that with with all the paperwork and red tape that he has to go through with all the councils and and all that kind of stuff, I just look, I would do it if I had to, but I couldn't get my head around it. He likes that fight. It's all objective and real. I mean, I mean, you know, block of land is real, house is real, you know. And there's steps to it all, you know, sales people are going like this, you know, unless I build it and put it in front of them, you know, when they sell everything that I build, and they're going like this again, I'm like, I'm like, I wouldn't want that. What are you trying to grab? What are you trying to get? They're trying to sell something that's not there. They can do it, but that's not what I'd want to do. You know what I mean? You know, just like this interview and coming here and doing this, you know, as you can see, Michael's the expert. He can just make something out of nothing and just do it on a whim, and that's why I'm just glad, because we have a competition, and we might get this further down in this interview. But you know, it doesn't matter what the market's doing. I'm buying land, I'm developing land, and I'm building no matter what he's doing or what the market's doing, right? It's his job to market and promote and sell it no matter what. And there's times where he's gone to sell, and he sold everything, and he's like, hurry up, you know, you need more land. You need to build more so. And there's other times where we've been overstocked. I'm like, bro, I'm going to keep going. You better hurry up and sell.
24:38
After, yeah, push and pull, yeah. After covid, like, you know, we had, like, 4040, houses
24:48
that we were maintaining to sell. That was That was tough. The wind was going through, 40 completed homes. 40 completed homes. The only advantage that we had was No, no developers had really stopped.
25:00
Stock. They didn't have any stock. We're the only ones with stock. So as soon as the as soon as the interest rate started to drop a bit, we we actually cleared all our stock and kept going. But it was, it just showed the determinism and the
25:14
industriousness of our our our sort of our business where we just, we just, we're building no matter what, we're builders and developers, but our competition is, like the real estate market, like we're not really in competition with the big builders, if you know what I mean. So in the real estate market, we do give a lot of our listings to our real estate agents and stuff. They love our listings because they're brand new. There's nothing. Don't worry. Well, they still get building reports, but not like one that's from a house that's like 3040, years old, if you know what I'm saying. So that's a really easy kind of sale. Yeah, I want to ask you, was there a particular moment where you realized you're not just running a business, you're scaling one, you're expanding. You're taking what is already working, and you're taking it to another level. I think we're in about four or five areas, and as Michael explained before, now we're in 14, and we were doing very well in that local at those local areas. And because we're doing so extremely well, we thought, Okay, before we scale and move further and we expand, let's come up with a product. Because we were doing all custom design at the time, we wanted to come up with a product that we knew, that we surveyed our clients, they told us what they wanted and what was popular. So we came up with a product, a design that we knew that was going to be affordable and exactly what they wanted, and then we duplicated that by building that as a speculative program. So with a speculative program and putting these designs to the market,
26:54
Michael and I got together and started putting in better communication systems within our company. So it flowed. The communications flowed better from division to department to department, right? And once we're very successful that we thought, okay, let's expand into these other areas and see how that goes. Right?
27:15
Do you remember that moment, Mike, we've always been Coffs Harbor, port, Macquarie, Tamworth and Dubbo. So it's kind of like 222,
27:28
towns on the north coast and two that are kind of like in the western parts of New South Wales. When we went from Dubbo into Mudgee, and then we also went into orange.
27:43
Things started to kind of like snowball, and that was all because of our local trades, so builders don't have the best reputation to in paying people. And it was we were just promoted that because we're, we pay on time, and we, you know, we just do the right thing, the right thing. Do the right thing being tradies ourselves, other trades would promote us to other trades. Yeah. So it's like when we went into a new town, like, if any builder goes into a new town, they've got to actually, they've got to get the infrastructure. They have to actually, you know, advertise for all the subcontractors. They might not have any problems with the with the local suppliers, like the Mito 10s and the Bunnings and, you know, where they buy the chip rock or get all their supply. But it's the trades that build the house, you know. And so our reputation just, actually, it was, it was sort of a thing where it's like, because going into some other smaller regions from larger regions, and then getting some great inquiry from the locals in that area, it's just started to snowball in a great way, yeah, how we do our investigations and going into these other areas is, and this was virtually what we needed to do to scale it and expand was we would go and purchase two Well, we do our homework first in the local area. What's wanted and needed there, what's building, how is the market really is, because if it's if it's going nowhere and the population hasn't expanded, you know, in over 10 years, it's really no point, you know. But when you actually see a place is growing, whether it's mining or agriculture or farming or whatever it might be. This is the type of investigation that we needed to do. So we would go in and we'd just buy two blocks of land, sometimes four. We'd build two or four of our homes, and then we would just see how they would go, if they'd sell very quickly. Then we'd continue to do that after a while, after continuing to do that. We put on a local project manager, a local sales consultant and an administrator, and that's just how we've been successful. We just kept them there and kept building, and that's how we've expanded from there, just doing the right homework, understanding the market and yeah, and there are, don't worry, there's been other areas where we purchase.
30:00
Two blocks of land, put our speculative houses on it, sold them, and then nothing else has happened. Because, you know, we did well out of it, but it's not something that we needed to continue, because nothing else was happening in that town. Yeah, it makes a lot of sense the way that you're describing it. What I'm curious to know is, how have you been able to balance, and I guess, the honoring of the legacy side of the business and some of the more traditional elements with the more modern direction changes opportunities that have been pushing it forward. Okay, so not much has really changed in our industry. As far as that's concerned, acquisitioning a block of land. Of course, there's a lot more red tape,
30:45
building one of our homes to then sell to the market. I believe, I believe what's changed is,
30:53
well, the customers changed based on the first time buyers been now sort of like pushed out of the market. Which is, which is a bit sad. They still have some kind of chance in some of the regional towns, because they are, they are actually affordable at a price point back in 2000 we
31:12
started when the government actually came out with the first home buyers scheme. We did. We did really well. We just got the reputation of building a couple of 100 houses a year for first time buyers for for a good nearly 18 years, we do sell to
31:29
first home buyers, second home buyers, investors and all that kind of stuff. But the first time buyer market isn't, isn't as high. So that's tight, that it's kind of like the buyers changed, not the building process. Marketing has changed. You know, in relation to
31:46
what platforms you're on, I've spent a lot of money on free to wear TV, but everyone's buying smart TVs now, so it's sort of like you've kind of now got to go, oh well, I've got to be on I've got to advertise on the app. Not so much the free to wear. It's there's that the communications and advertisement and promotion and stuff like that, I think the interaction and the connection between customer and sales person, that hasn't changed. I don't believe that's changed at all.
32:18
It's always worked. So therefore, why would you change that element Exactly, exactly. But if we don't, if we if we don't evolve, if we haven't, this is the thing that Johnny was trying to John. He was catching like invisible flies. It was the part that in the difference between both of us is he looks at something and sees it very objective. It's like, here's the block of land, there's the plan. I can put a house on it. I can build and voila. And I can do, I can do like a quality control and it's all that's all great, whereas trying to keep up with today's times in I think, well, I don't think I know, I know that first you've got to actually
33:01
raise people's interest, you know, you've got to, you've, you've got to, at least come across like that's, this is something I'm going to watch, because of how much people are watching these days, you know. And then, you know, putting yourself out there on a lot of things to be seen, and then raising that interest, and hopefully that interest then turns into some kind of reach or some kind of inquiry. And that inquiry then, you know, it can, it can literally roll from there. I like that type of things. I like the esthetics of
33:33
of putting promotion and marketing and stuff like that together branding. I love it. I absolutely love it, because I'm so proud of our of our hebard legacy, our Australian roots. I'm so proud of that, and I know that there's a lot of Australian families that are actually proud of us. Yeah, so
both ways. Yeah, it does. It goes both ways. Yeah, I love that. One of your standout approaches, and this is something you touched on, is fixed price builds with no variations. Why is this such a core part of your model? Because builders lie, and sometimes some people want to be lied to. They see a price. I know that sounds unusual, but we have done so many surveys, and I will, I will get Johnny to explain the nitty gritty of our fixed pricing, because he's a master at it. But when it comes to the general public or the reputation, that has actually really hurt our our legacy and our business in the past, is that you know you will have builders that will they will give a price,
34:46
and they'll lock them into a contract, and by the time it gets to the end of the of construction,
34:54
they can be hit between anywhere between 50 to $70,000 of extras.
35:00
Of things that weren't originally in the price. It's a sham, it's a lie, and it's bad business. And we really, we're dead against it. Recently, my sales manager has quoted, he's actually quoted a lot of jobs. We were $100,000
35:17
in difference in price recently. And it's like it just keeps coming up again. It's like people want to go for that price and hope, but they're not going to get away. They won't get away from exactly what we have actually priced on, what we know in, in our expert opinion on on what those costs are going to be. And I'll get Johnny to explain what they are, yeah, well, fixed prices and no
variations. It's, it's very easy. You know that that was something that,
35:48
because we're not going to, we're going to buy the block land and we're going to build the house in the local area, so we're not going to charge ourselves the extras and the variations, they all come down to site costs. So when we're in an area and we get a survey on the block of land, we get a soil test done.
36:08
We know if we're if the soil is going to be hard, too soft, very reactive. All three, you know, contribute to the foundations and the extra costs on this on site costs, if it's a sloping block of land and you get a survey, you know, it's a sloping block of land, you're going to have to cut to get a level pad so that you're going to need retaining walls, again, an added extra on site costs that clients aren't aware of. And if we're doing our own acquisitions and due diligence, to put a fixed, priced, fully finished home with a nice backyard, not something that falls away. We're going to set it up absolutely perfect. We're going to cut it right. We're going to put all the extras in. We're going to make sure the driveway is not too steep. We're going to put the Alfresco that's going to be facing north east, right, and not, you know, so you don't have to worry about the westerly sun, how we position our homes, how we cut it and excavate it, how we position it, all got to do with making sure that it's a level pad, nice backyards. Drive by, gradients are not too steep and and we know what's under the ground. So our solution to people, whether they come to us or not. If you own a block of land, pay for a survey, pay for a soil test, then go to the builder and say, cost my house to this. What this information I have to this criteria, okay? Because then
37:37
they can't really lock you in or escape these extra site costs, which they charge variations, because you've gone and done it now, anyone can go get a soil test in their local area. They're everywhere. Anyone can go to a surveyor and get a survey. I think if I was going to guess, you wouldn't be paying any more than two and a half $1,000 for the both of them.
37:56
But that is nothing compared to 50 to $70,000 worth of variations and extras. So that's before they've even, like upgraded the kitchen. That's just to put the house on the block. And it's just like we had the we had a big land developer invite us into the Hunter Valley,
38:16
and it's a long standing land developer who has just absolutely loved what we've done and helped us with we've helped one another in a lot of areas and a lot of the regions that we actually construct in. And they said, Look, we need you guys here. We need you guys to come here. Because, you know, there's a lot of people that you know that they're there, they're developing the land, and then they're going to see these other builders, and they're not finishing the construction of the homes. They're running out of money before they're completed, and and they just Yeah, so it's kind of like they don't like passing on what they've done in developing the blocks of land to the builders that, and then all of a sudden, it's like they're not even really getting their communities built. If that makes sense. It does. Yeah, yeah. What I would love to know is, how did you come up with this concept to begin with? Because I would imagine that you had to absorb perhaps more costs in the short term, sure, in order to be able to sustain a model like this. How did you think about our father? Our father actually came up with it. He started to get a little sick and tired of losing contracts. There was a lot of
39:33
sort of Queensland and Gold Coast builders coming into New South Wales that were really undercutting, like majorly undercutting,
39:43
a lot of our business. And so what he did is he had already built up quite, quite a
39:51
very profitable family business at that time. And then, so He then started to more invest and more do the speculative bill.
40:00
Olds, which then all of a sudden, just was, like, it put us outside of that market. So like, I've just just, I've just told you that we've, we've, we've quoted some and lost and lost business in that sense, but that's only about 25% of our business. The rest, we just, we're proactive. We just build the homes and sell them to the real estate market. So he was the one who actually changed it. Where he goes, I'm, I'm not quoting to win jobs by everybody. I'm just gonna, I'm actually going to make my main focus this family business, focus on just the speculative homes. And he went down into one estate I, like a local retired doctor actually remind us of this story history. The other day, he went down into one of the estates in in Coffs harbor, and he built the same plan with a different front over and over and over and over and over, and they all sold like hot cakes in the real estate market and and that was it. When he just we did that, and then we're still quoting in Port Macquarie, so we put the same model there. Now we've evolved a lot from those designs. Oh yeah, yeah. We started with these really small, three bedroom, one bathroom, single garage homes, very affordable. Yeah, right. All Aussie products, no worries. And we just, and we churned heaps of them out. It was kind of like, I don't know, I guess one of the first little Suzuki chinos that just came out, he sold millions of them.
41:29
We kind
41:31
of did that in the in the housing, in the housing market. And it really, it just, it bolstered us. And now what we've got now with a three bathroom, 260
41:46
square meter, four. Four bedroom, two living area, double garage, home, yeah, fully completed. Three different living areas, three living areas, yeah. Okay, this is it you're explaining. You know, our our best product, what we come up with, which we love to push and and again, you know, we have four or five different fronts. So you could do it four times down one street, you know, then you've got all different houses, but you walk in, it's the same design, yeah, yeah, and yeah, we've got five different sort of color selection, color, color boards. And recently, in the last 12 months, we've had our color selection lady who's worked with us for 20 years, she retired, and we've, we've, we, we onboarded a new color, color selection interior designer. Now, she hates that interior designer sort of label, because it's quite easy to be easy. Anyone interior designer these days, she's, she's like a specialist in that, and you can tell, because what she's done to our plans is wonderful, yeah, yeah. And the suppliers, the suppliers have, have come to the table, yeah. So that's what's, you know, like, we have just gotten the best products that have just come out into our homes, and thanks to good old Lauren, good old laws, yeah,
43:10
put our product on the next level. So if we were Toyotas before Lauren came along, we upgraded to Lexus. We're now Alexis
43:20
and you must be so proud of that evolution, though we've been in relationships with some of these supplies, major supplies, for over 25 years, they come in, you know, they're representatives of the company. They're on a budget when it comes to taking people out for dinner. So we shout. We love to sit and chew the fat with them and and they're great people, you know, and because we don't go by the set menu, no, we don't. We eat a lot. If they've got a budget, we'll blow the budget, just, just, just one of us will. So, you know, we have to shout. So, which is fine, because, you know, these guys, they work hard, they travel long distances, they look after us. It's some of those guys that have that actually went into some of the other smaller towns. Yeah. And they, if you guys are, if you guys are actually building your speculative program in your homes, here you should go here, it's, it's they position towns from for us. They've existed. This is where it's going really well, yeah, because they know that it's like, if you guys go and throw some houses in here, they're gonna, they're gonna get business as well. So win, win, win one outcome. I think when you find good partners, good suppliers, like it just works. And that's why you've been able to have success, not just in one area, but now in multiple areas. And I think reputation, especially in the building industry. You've touched on, it really is everything, and I think if you do things the right way, that's what really contributes to a lot of the longevity and the long term success that you've been able to have.
44:55
What I want to touch on is something that we did speak about.
45:00
Just very briefly, which was some of the challenges recently in the building industry, everything from, you know, approvals to insurance to cost pressures, what has been the hardest part to navigate the builders, insurance, the it's got to go. I know that the government won't completely wipe it, but this, and I'm not talking on behalf of our company. We are very blessed that we're third generational. We have assets, and we have
45:34
enough in our company to purchase and have a lot of builders insurance, but the red tape that comes involved. I'm speaking on behalf of the smaller builders. If they don't have enough, they can't trade. There's been a lot of builders out there that have gone broke and really made it hard, and these rules have come in, and they're too hard. So they're really hard to navigate around. And look, we virtually have to put someone on full time for three months every year to put to a broker to prove our profit margin, and we're making profit so we can continue to keep trading and expanding. Other builders don't have that luxury. And when I go to housing associate, housing industry association events, I look around the room and I see builders that I worked on the job site with when I was doing my apprenticeship, and they're tired and they're just run down, and they're just over it, you know, so the government really have to do something about that. And then, you know, you obviously have your councils, your government authority in local towns that you've got to deal with through way of either doing development applications and getting that approved or compliant development, which is something that you actually get approval through faster. It's not any faster, but, you know, so they're really difficult
46:50
to sort of get around. How we do it, but and to solve and get around those sort of problems is just have to be very organized. You have to be organized. You have we, we've got a very good key performance indicator and a line from the moment we cut the cut site, pull the slab until the cleaners are at the end walking out and we're handing their keys over to our service department to hand the house over to our clients. That is set up absolutely perfect. We had to go back from the time that we actually purchase a block of land, and then you go through drawing the plan, getting all the engineering, the certificates, ordering and estimating the job to actually into Council. We got had to get faster and more organized on that line, because the moment we got that completed and we put it into Council, we just wait. And you can wait two months, three months, up to four months in certain areas. So if you're not organized, and if you don't put that within your time frame of allowing that three to four months, you won't start the job, you won't finish the job, you won't get paid. There's another thing also where Michael and I, we met with Brad Armitage from the housing industry housing industry association,
48:08
at New South Wales Palmer only a few weeks ago. And you know, he he really does listen, and he really can make a difference in our industry with taking it up further to, you know, state and federal parliament. So,
48:25
you know, that was really good to chat with him, wasn't it? Because we told him about the builders warranty insurance, builders compensation insurance, and we also told him about these timeframes through developer application look overall Laura, to out create government authority, just be organized, and that's the best way to do it. And, you know, and have people like people like Brad from the HIA that can actually support you and take it up further and get you some solutions. You know, yeah, absolutely. And as leaders, how do you keep your teams feeling steady when there's so many external pressures, when, when so much is evolving and changing perhaps outside of your control, whether it's in the industry or beyond. How do you approach leadership from that perspective? When we when we actually meet, we have, we have, obviously, our big rocks within our business
49:27
are literally our the acquisitions and the land that we purchase,
49:34
the
49:35
submission and the application and approval of the of the councils
49:42
of the houses that we're going to build, the construction start the construction, occupation certificate, which is the sign off from the council, and then the settlement between us and the customer of the purchase of the property. Now, when we actually sit down and we're talking all about that.
50:00
Each division takes ownership of that big rock, and from taking ownership of that big rock, I've actually formed a team of experts and managers that back one another. So if we have a backlog and everything's clogged within the Planning Approval rock, right, everyone's just like, oh, what's so? What's happening? The more interest that everyone has of other people's rock in the company. They don't feel like they're just fighting that boulder by themselves, by themselves, alone battle. We all own it. We all own it, guys. You know, everyone owns their rock, and they're proud of that. And this is where I was telling you about acknowledgement on their expertise, on their purpose, on what they're doing. But we've got a, we've actually got a group, a group of managers that are that are backing everybody. So sale, the sales stat will go down. You wouldn't believe how word of mouth or or just intention of the whole group
51:05
raises the stat in sales. And it's all, it's a, you know, I might be going into positive energy, but at the same time, it's sort of, it is it is really the focus. It's like forming a group like that and acknowledging and validating every single one, everyone's rock for the one, for the whole purpose of what we like to exchange in abundance to our customer, how we kind of get through, whether it be the red tape for the approval process, through the councils, through an external source that we have no control of. We don't say we don't have control of it. That's one number one. We don't say we don't have control of it. We literally, because we're assigning ourselves the effect point of that. We don't say we haven't got control of the market because of the industry. Then we're assigning ourselves where the effect of that. It's like, no, no. You know what? We're just going to turn over and we're going to turn under. Look. We look under every rock, see what lead we've got, or what inquiry we have. There's always sales, there's always faster processes, there's always a better attitude. Yeah, and if I love that approach, well, if I had to guess Lara, I mean, every CEO that you possibly would interview has that attitude where I'm not going to be the effective of this. I'm going to out create and be the cause of this. Would I be right by saying, oh, yeah, absolutely. And I think that's part of leadership is, is not folding the moment you're up against a challenge. Because part of leadership is, I'm choosing to lead despite the inevitable challenges you're all in no matter what. And I think when you have that approach and that attitude, you then tend to become a lot more solutions focused as well, because you're not just at the demise of your circumstances. You look at what you can control and what you can create. And there's so much,
53:00
there's a lot more we can do as leaders than I think sometimes people realize, and so I think it's looking for that, especially when times get tough. Well, we went through 2019
53:12
and I'm not going to go back to 2008 because everyone knows that one but 2019
53:18
you know, the royal commission from the banks, no one could get loans. There were multi millionaires that we knew that they drank too many coffees, and because that was listed, they couldn't get a loan yet. They made millions of dollars, you know, then we got hit. Yeah, the banking, the banking lending, lending, the banking lending criteria went through like, that Royal Commission, and it really, it just, and the applications went from like, you know, everything approved, to zero, nearly zero approves. And we had, we had, actually a lot of sales already, already Pro to contract, waiting for finance approval and that thing. So we had, you know, the sales that just absolutely bottom out. We thrive in stuff like that. Yeah, we thrive and stuff like that. It's sort of a thing where it's like, even when we went to parliament the other day,
54:06
you know, we had, you know, we had, you know, liberals against labor and and we had the Liberal government there and saying, you know, look, we're gonna, we, you know, making suggestions on how it's we're gonna, they're gonna help the private sector within our industry on getting through the red tape.
54:22
And there was no, no suggestion that actually come from the Liberal government on how they're going to help that actually seemed, seemed like it was going to be help. But I wasn't there. I was just, I was there to see if, if there was something that they could do. They're not. So we just carry on like it doesn't matter what government I'm going for. It's sort of like I'm looking at it to the degree. It to the degree where it's like they can throw anything that they want at us with this red tape and everything like that. We'll be as supporters as we can within the industry, but we're just going to keep charging forward. Yeah, that's leadership. It is. Well sent. We've spoken a lot about legacy throughout this conversation.
55:00
Conversation. Love it. We talk about
55:04
it all the time.
55:08
What I want to know is how you're thinking about it now for future generations. Well, my son,
55:17
my son and our daughters
55:21
are more than all. Our daughters. Actually, they're in the arts, they're all in they're all dancers and singers and actors, and they're all triple threats, which is the musical theater term. Apparently, it's triple threat, singing, dancing and acting. You have to be a triple threat. And there's drama at our home. I tell you what. That's it. Make a song out of any we might be, we might be leaders in our business, but we are not leaders. They lead. Yeah,
55:54
they're very strong, very loud, very obnoxious, and they're very exactly like us.
56:01
Yeah? Doesn't, no, it doesn't
56:06
they. But we have, we have one son, which is actually my son, that's actually he's in the business. He's working in the quantities and estimating, sort of quoting section of the business, which is actually a great place to sort of start, because he's he's looking at plan drawing and every little piece of material that goes into the home, he's actually costing that on a plan. So literally, knows every particle, detail of every detail of that, and the cost of that. He
56:39
didn't get it from his dad, but he's a mathematical genius, so he's he got that from his grandfather. He probably did. He probably did, or He's great. He's his grandfather. Exactly right, exactly right. Yeah, they're kind of like a rain man with numbers, but
56:57
sorry, that's an old Tom. Yeah?
57:00
Me,
57:03
maybe I should actually say he's got, like, a beautiful mind, like,
57:09
today's date,
57:11
or close to So, yeah, so he's, he's, he's actually in the business. He's got a lot of drive and a lot of passion.
57:19
I would say that
57:23
taking him to
57:25
our cafe meetings every morning for breakfast
57:31
as a baby, and then the first time his grandfather,
57:38
he knew that he was able to contribute to the conversation was when he got into the footy tips. And Grandfather happened to just look at us and just say, well, our dad looked at us and
57:53
said, just, who do you reckon is going to win out of para and Cronulla this weekend? And then he goes on, I'm tipping Cronulla pop. And then, and then he was at that moment that he felt that he could actually so he came with the footy tips every, every time he came to the cafe at that at that stage, or it was more the question of who's playing this weekend as well, before he checked the paper, if that makes sense as well. And then from there, he started. He's always seen and heard is, you know, the pros and cons of of our industry, but, but also, you know, the connection and the and the love that we we sort of have for one another, and the unity and the camaraderie and all that kind of stuff. He's kind of lean raised in that so our father still works with us today. He's 73 years old, so he still works with us today. He he's a, he's he's on the side as a, as a, as a great advisor, and he actually sees the business more on the outside than what he did when he was in it, and so that's what makes him such a great, great connection and advice to us, but we're running the business now. But all I can say is, is that what, what excites me is, is that my son's 21 years old, and he just jumped in the car with with his pop, and they went down and they bought a brand new car together. And so it's sort of like we're still going to be in this family legacy, and we're going to be educating and training and coaching our grandkids, our grandkids, and that's
59:35
we love seeing that with, with our dad pop to Michael's son, yeah, Jackson, in the end, it gave us that glimpse of, Wow, this can be us with our grandchildren. Was going to be a lot, because, you know, we've got a lot of kids. Yeah, we have. But the thing is, is that real estate?
59:54
What's the word I'm looking for here? Man, it doesn't, it's not that. It doesn't criticize, you know, you.
1:00:00
Said it the other day, Oh, I see, I see, yeah, you know, anyone, anyone within the in our industry, whether or not they're selling a building product, it doesn't, it doesn't discriminate. What I mean is, is that, like, you know, you could in, especially in real estate sales, it doesn't like you could walk into a multi million dollar development and stuff like that, and a woman can actually sell that property. And actually, to be quite honest with you, I like the fact that women are dominating in the real estate industry. You know what I mean? They know their shit. They really, really know their shit. And I don't know, I don't know so much about in other like in America or in other countries, but I definitely know that in Australia, women are dominating in the actual real estate market, and in sales, are making a lot more money than men and based on their sales ability, if that makes sense. So but it doesn't matter whether or not, like, we've got, we've got to go. We've got, like, a great sales team themselves. But I think Johnny's actually raising this based on the fact that we have so many daughters that have opportunity, if you know what I'm saying in that regard,
1:01:10
legacy, like they're all in the arts. But you know, look, we develop the land. We build the product. Yes, we sell the product. Yet we had,
1:01:21
what it was at 32 units that we built back in 2017
1:01:25
in cos harbor. They've sold since 2017 nearly eight times over. So we've done all the hard work by buying the land,
1:01:35
you know, putting all the services and everything in building all those units, and then we get resell it. We get our money, you know. And then we've given those listings to the real estate, local real estate people, and they've done very well over and over and over and over again. So we decided, well, okay, let's go into real estate, you know. And that's our next step. So my wife's gone off, got a real estate license, and the next step is that if the girls don't make it in the arts, then my wife owns the real estate company, she's going to have plenty of listings. I can tell you that, right?
1:02:10
And, and it's also, also,
1:02:16
and, yeah, and if I don't build a good products, you'll tell me, I can tell you, Oh, yeah. But
1:02:23
the good thing about it is it just, it's not just relied on just one boy.
1:02:29
This can be also something that, if the girls don't pursue and they don't really want to keep doing what they're doing, then come and work for mum. Because, like, like Michael said, you know, our sales team, especially the women that work for us, they are just the best.
1:02:43
But the industry has made it that way. That's what I like about it. Yeah, it's not our family culture that's made it that way, just the industry of the Australian industry itself, and what I've actually observed has made it that way. It's not discriminative of who you're buying any kind of property from, and that's what I love about it. I absolutely love that about that, because it really does give opportunity to be the fact that our family is literally a five to one as far as boys and girls is concerned, that's
1:03:10
some ratio.
1:03:13
Yeah, and I want to ask you a final question before we get into our closing tradition. What do you when you think about the vision of hebard homes, what does that look like? What do you expect? Household name?
1:03:30
I just really, honestly believe that we grow up, grew up like watching Jerry Harvey for Harvey Norman
1:03:38
on the TV, and we also and John Simmons for Aussie home loans,
1:03:44
and Dick Smith and stuff like that. I mean, I, I if it, if it doesn't happen that way, you know, I won't be disappointed. But I'd love to know that our family legacy has actually, really turned into a, an actual household name in Australia. I'd love that. That's I'd absolutely, I'd be so proud of that we wouldn't take the credit for that. It would be the credit of the whole of the all three, four generations that got it there. Yeah, absolutely, instilling and keeping the same family values that we've had since grandfather. He was a he was a tough man, yeah, the thing about our grandfather is, is that he he got personal. And I think these days people aren't getting personal enough, like he was really up in your face when things were wrong or they weren't done right, or if something was dishonest, he was right up in your face about it. And I don't think there's enough of that these days. If you know what I'm saying, his intention was to make you better. Yes, that's the right reason. He ruffled a few feathers, but still certainly upset and offended a lot of people. I think that's what people have had the problem with. You know this? You know people getting offended. But.
1:05:00
That when you're doing in the right way, in the right with the right truth, the right integrity, to better that person, because what they're doing is wrong, I don't think that's wrong. Yeah, you know, yeah. Wow. That is so powerful. Thank you for sharing that. So here at CEO behind the
scenes, we have a closing tradition where we ask the same two questions. I'd love each of your takes on these. So the first one is, what is one thing you've changed your mind about recently, and why I've actually changed my mind about what I considered was
1:05:38
a brag, and what I consider now is something that needs to be advertised in relation to the success of where anyone can get to if they really have,
1:05:50
you know, a lot of, a lot of passion and drive and don't, don't, you know, really name the goal and chase it. I've always been that way, but in promoting myself and the successes that I've actually had along the way,
1:06:05
I had this consideration in my mind that it was that it was too kind of like on myself, or it was like it did come across like as if I was rubbing something into somebody's face. And that wasn't as much as that was in my heart. I didn't want it to come across like that. Now, if that's going to be received that way, it's going to get received that way, but I wanted to really change as an individual to promote not just the family business, but also my part in the success of this family business without that consideration. So I've changed that only pretty much in the last six months, on my social platforms, on anything like that. And like I said, the feedback that I've got has been so much more positive than what I expected. And so then I turned around and I thought to myself, I should have done this a
1:07:00
long time ago. That's something recent that I've actually changed. Yeah, you, if you, if you meet me, I'll tell you how good I am. I've got no problems in that. But to put it out on a platform, it's very different. This is a real fear for so many people.
1:07:17
It is, it is, and I think there's a dis there's a distinction between bragging when you don't actually have it's not based on the frequency of truth, as in, it's an illusion. You're saying something that isn't actually factually correct, yes, whereas when it's based on the frequency of truth, all it's doing is amplifying the essence of who you already are, what you're doing, yeah, and you see it as service, because you're able to reach more people, yes, and bring your good work into their worlds, which they wouldn't know about if you weren't actually there advocating. Thank you for the articulation of that, the result that I've actually got, because that's exactly the result that I've actually received. And that's why I sort of thought should have done this a year ago, because it's inspired. I follow a lot of you know, inspiring people in America and everything like that, and they say that there's haters and all this kind of stuff. I haven't gotten that yet, and I'm not saying they don't exist. All I'm saying is, is that since I changed that mindset and since I put things out there that have been my success along the way, it's been received exactly the way that you just explained it. And it's, it's really, it's very fulfilling. Sure it is. That's a fantastic shift. So thank you for sharing no problems. And what about you, John, well, you know, when Michael left before and you asked, you know, regarding, you know, this podcast, this interview, how do you feel? And I'm like, can't stand this.
1:08:56
But you know, be honest. I'm sorry, but you know, like, I mean, you know, I never knew, just recently what branding was. And, you know, promotion, marketing, branding, I don't want to know about that. I want to know more about the ins and out details of, you know, working drawings, plans, you know, all that sort of stuff and building the product.
1:09:18
But you know, I've had to embrace this. I've had to really, Mike put the microphone on me when we're out in Bathurst just recently, and he says, I just want you to explain. And I mean, I've got to admit after I did it. I mean, where's his mic? Me Up. I'm like, Ah, okay, and I've got to talk, right? And he's like, bro, people don't know who we are, and they probably still don't know who we are. You know, who we are. You know, we're very well known in local communities, but we really need to, if we're going to expand in other areas Brandon and show people who we are. So I've had to really change and and embrace that, you know. But you know, when he miked me up, and I really love talking about what we build, our inclusions, how we've upgraded, you know, our.
1:10:00
And what we put in the very best of everything, and how we can make it affordable. I love that. So he's just got to put the mic on me and just get it out of me and just get me to do it two or three times. You know, that's something that I've recently just changed and thought, you know, we've got to do these things. And you know, we're so happy to be here. You know, this is, this has been absolutely great. But just coming here is just like, Oh,
1:10:27
it's just, you know, you know, get me on a job site with my trades and supplies any day. You know what I mean, that's also your comfort zone. It's also building that muscle of doing it more and more and being like, okay, I can do that again, yeah. And he's, I mean, we fly to LA next week to do something, you know, that some that expands, that's all a part of this, you know. And look again, I'm very blessed. I've got Michael, because he just, he's just so good at it. He can just walk up and just, you know, me, I need to prepare. You know,
1:10:59
it still works. It works. Yeah, whatever works for you, you find your own way. No, I love hearing that. Thank you for sharing. And what about one thing that you've not changed your mind about a belief that you'd want to share to help others lead or live better, understanding exchanging from one person to another. It doesn't matter whether or not you are exchanging kindness, if you're exchanging a product that you are paying for that there are four conditions of of exchange, and
1:11:38
it's invisible, and people know it once you tell them or show them. And out of those four conditions of exchange, you can have one that's you can have rip off exchange, you can have a partial exchange. You can have a fair exchange, or you can exchange with somebody in abundance. And out of those four conditions of exchange ever since, I've actually, you know, I've taught my family that. I've learned it myself, obviously, and then I've, I've worked it, I've seen it. To understand those four levels of exchange, you have to understand what is valuable. What is it that's valuable to another person that you are exchanging with? And that's changed my life. That's totally changed my life. And so it doesn't matter whether or not if we like to operate in our lives, in exchanging in abundance with every single person that we meet, and we find that that has made our lives happier, in our conversations in our friendly smiles. It doesn't matter, even if we're having a bad day, it's like, okay, if I can just make that other person feel better or change the condition that they're in, no matter how they're feeling. That's that's actually something that I'll never change that, and it is something that I will definitely be be teaching my grandkids beautifully. Said, Thank you for sharing. And John, yeah, well, beat that, bro.
1:13:13
I'm not gonna lie. Can
1:13:16
you ask me the question you
1:13:22
can just say so
1:13:25
when I gave $30 million to an orphanage,
1:13:38
just tell The story and we'll go and write the check.
1:13:43
That's virtually what it is and what our family does, exchange in abundance. We grew up with Dad believing. Dad didn't know about the four parts of exchange and exchanging in abundance,
1:13:56
but he just naturally did it. And the thing is, is that watching him, the client, or whoever he's doing business with, has to get more out of it than he does and and that's right down to even the staff members that work for us, you know, they they've got to get more out of this job then, then what we're getting out of it, you know? And that's why Michaels talking about putting people on purpose lines, you know, if people don't have a purpose, they're not really living and growing up with our father and knowing, no matter what he did, these people have to get more out of it than what we do. And it reminds me of
1:14:34
one time these clients, they couldn't get finance, they couldn't get a builder to build their house, then they're trying to get finance to build a second hand home. And I remember Michael going taking them to the right broker. They were unconditionally approved within a few days, and there is standing on the driveway handing them the keys and and
1:14:58
he couldn't take the keys.
1:15:00
Pretty just, it was one of the most, one of the most awesome moments ever. He was just like, he couldn't believe that that was going to be his house within a couple of days, when he was spending, I don't know how long, months and months and months trying to get approved, trying to get a loan, trying to own a house. And Michael made the this is the sales side. I mean, I'd build already a perfect home feed that Mike,
1:15:23
because the house is so perfect. Now, Michael sold that home and Yeah, and just seeing those people's faces
1:15:31
ecstatic, but still couldn't, couldn't have it. You know what I mean? Just, just, yeah,
1:15:37
too, within the midst of the moment of this is actually really, this is actually ours. It's those moments that drive us and keep us going to work every day. That's what we love.
1:15:49
Beautifully said. Well, speaking about abundant exchanges, I really believe this was such an abundant conversation, and I'm so grateful to both of you, John, Michael, for coming on the show and sharing your incredible story. This has been such a joy and privilege to have you on the show and to hear about the way that you have and continue to build and lead your business is nothing short of inspiring. So thank you for joining us. Thank you very much. Yeah, thank you for making it so easy for Yeah,
1:16:24
the feeling is mutual.
1:16:27
Well, thank you so much again, and to everyone listening, thank you so much for tuning into this episode. If you enjoyed it, then please be sure to subscribe, rate and review the show and share this episode with someone who you know will really benefit from hearing from the incredible wisdom, lessons, insights that John and Michael so generously shared today. Thank you so much for joining us, and we'll see you next time on CEO: Behind the Scenes.