Speaker 1 00:00
People, first strategy second. Why that order?
Speaker 2 00:05
If you take care of your folks and make them part of a team. Lauren, it all works out. It all flows,
ultimately, to the bottom line, which, by the way, that's what I'm all about too. Is making
money to empower the folks to do that within your organization is what's key.
Speaker 1 00:19
You believe the best business strategy is a happy customer.
Speaker 2 00:25
I would say sometimes you will do stuff for a customer that doesn't make sense financially.
When it's not our fault, you just make it your fault and you just handle it. I want this individual
crazy in cabinet boards. I don't want them having a bad taste. Now that's going to cost us
money initially, okay, but long term, it won't.
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Speaker 1 00:46
What if the most effective business strategy isn't a strategy at all, but a decision about how you
treat your people. I'm Laura necessian, and this is CEO behind the scenes. Today we're
unpacking a leadership philosophy that flips the traditional model putting people first strategy
second and customers at the center of everything. My guest is Jeff Jackson, CEO of cabinet
works group from leading a large scale culture transformation to driving innovation through
technology platforms like tandem. Jeff is building a business where performance is a by product
of alignment, accountability and trust. Please enjoy Jeff. Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 01:32
Thank you. Great to be here.
Speaker 1 01:34
It's so great to have you here. And where I really wanted to start this conversation off is the
fact that you've built your leadership philosophy around a simple but powerful idea, people,
first strategy, second. Why that order?
Speaker 2 01:55
Well, you know, I've always said a company by definition, is a gathering of people. It's not the
actual assets or the building or the machinery or the equipment or even the brand. It's really
about the people that run those assets. And so I've always thought and put people first in that
equation, because if you take care of your folks and make them part of a team, Lauren, it all
works out. It all flows ultimately, to the bottom line, which, by the way, that's what I'm all about
too. Is making money. You got to make money in the business world, and so, you know to
empower the folks to do that within your organization is what's key.
Speaker 1 02:29
Yeah, and I'm wondering where you understood that principle and philosophy to begin with,
because it feels very counter intuitive for a lot of leaders that are told or conditioned to believe
you need to focus on profit first. Where did that understanding come from?
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Speaker 2 02:47
It kind of got developed over time, if I'm being honest, I didn't grow up the typical CEO route. I
grew up from humble means. My dad was a firefighter. My mom worked in a sewing machine
shop, so both had 10th grade educations. So I grew up more of that blue collar Lauren glass of
folks. And so you know, when you grow up like that, you see the needs of those, those
individuals, and you realize, hey, you know, if you can just empower individuals and they can
take you to that next level. And so my dad, being a fire chief, he really incented a lot of that
kind of mentality of leadership and leading your team, because, because, in a fire department,
you got to be a team when you go into a house, you got to have backup in that house. You got
to count on the person beside you. And so, you know, I watched him in his leadership style as I
grew in mine, you know, initially coming out of college, I went to KPMG, so it was more of a
hired gun. It was, it was in or out, up or up or out, you know, and it was a different kind of pace
and philosophy on people. But as I grew in my career, I realized more and more the importance
of people in that in that equation, you can't do everything yourself. You can't be a one man
army or, you know, a gunslinger coming in to fix everything all the time. And so as you grow
and you gain more responsibility, you have to rely on your team, the people around you,
Speaker 1 04:01
absolutely. And for leaders who are listening to this, what does that people first approach really
look like in practice? What does that look like from it, from a day to day leadership perspective,
anytime
Speaker 2 04:14
you look at a company like I came into cabinet works almost two years ago, and so the first
thing in assessing a company that needs some change. You know, our culture was kind of
down. We had some issues in plants. You know, our brands weren't necessarily growing. We
had a lot of brands, and there was, there was a scattered focus. And I came in, the first thing I
looked at was the people, the culture, and how can I literally change that culture to drive better
behavior? And first, it's all about identifying what's missing. You know, are they not fully
empowered? Do they not get enough reward? Do they not get enough recognition or
advancement opportunities? It's just a various items you look at to see what's really missing in
that individual's life, and in the group in general, the company in general,
Speaker 1 04:57
I think you've touched on something so key there, which. Is a lot of leaders go into
organizations with their own agenda and their own priorities, but what you're actually saying is
you've gone in and you've actively asked questions and listened to what your people are saying
and responding in accordance with that. So I That's
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Speaker 2 05:15
exactly right.
Speaker 1 05:16
I love your perspective on that, and something that you've also said is that investing in people
isn't optional. It's a strategic imperative. What have you observed that shifts when leaders treat
their people in that way?
Speaker 2 05:35
Well, I've observed it's kind of that next layer of success, if you think about it, you know, when
you go into an organization, you want to shore up the P and L, you want to have the best
assets, the most reliable equipment. You want on time and in full. You want all your metrics
lining up. But ultimately, it's the people that get those metrics to line up. So sure you go in,
maybe you're cutting costs, maybe you're rearranging brands, maybe consolidating brands or
consolidating plants. So you do a lot of initiatives. Initially, when you go in to change a
company or turn around a company, but once those initiatives are in place, then you kind of let
the dust settle, and then you see the people that are left that are going to drive the results of
what you put in place, what you've implemented. And so, you know, you look at that, and then
you ask yourself, like, what's missing? What? How can I now engage. How can I give them
quote, skin in the game, not in this company, but in my prior company. I was CEO of PGT
innovations. I granted stock to everyone in my company at a tune of about $12 million cost.
You know, my board was gracious. They let me do that. But I came to him and I said, you know,
I want to make everybody owners. I don't make everybody shareholders in this company. It was
a public company. And they said, Sure. Will it work and it'll take us to the next level, guys? And
literally, it did. Our performance started improving because people started watching the bottom
line of the company. They started watching their stock, they started watching their investment,
and it just, it just gave them a motivation to drive and to work harder. But it's all about building
that team and that momentum and holding each other accountable. And if you make people, or
if you give them the opportunity to be owners, or feel like they got skin in that game, they'll
take it all day long. And those that don't, quite frankly, you don't want them on your team
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Speaker 1 07:12
very well said, and I love this, this notion of skin in the game, because I think it's something
that's so easily overlooked, is that when you empower your people to actually have a vested
interest and connect what they're doing with the bigger vision of the organization and where
you're going, it's a lot easier to drive that forward momentum and get that alignment. And to
your point, the people who aren't aligned will naturally drop off or or there'll be a decision that
will that will come at some point. So I really appreciate your perspective around that.
Something I want to touch on that I've heard you speak about is the realities of leadership,
because you've said something really interesting, that being a CEO isn't as glamorous as what
people may assume. Talk to me about that. And what does that reality actually look like?
Speaker 2 08:09
It is funny, because people think I want the top job, or what the you know, corner office and
stuff, but we all put on our pants every morning. Yeah, when you wake up, everybody does the
same thing, right? And so once you get to that position, it becomes a lot more challenging to
share your thoughts, because your thoughts matter more. In essence, your thoughts will dictate
actions, and so you got to always be on guard about how you share your thoughts with others.
So I guess getting to the top, while it's a goal of a lot of individuals, it should be I think the more
cognitive bandwidth you can have at the bottom, the more departments you can run over time
and build that experience, the better you're going to be when those decision times come,
because there's going to be tough decisions, there's going to be easy decisions. But for
instance, at cabinet works. When I came into cabinet works, I came in and turned around the
company. So the first year, literally, I changed over the entire executive team, brought in
everybody I knew from my past to take on roles. I closed three facilities and cut 20% of the
workforce. Now, initially, you would think, wow, that's going to shock the company, and it did.
But then I turned around and increased the 401 K match. Put in an hourly bonus program that
they never had before. We paid first year bonus that we hadn't had in three years. We put in
childhood educational credits that they can take 1000 bucks and invest in their own kids to
further their education. We started giving back. We opened up a healthcare clinics and two of
our facilities free to our employees. So once they started seeing that, along with the changes, it
all meshes. And then all of a sudden, hey, this is a great, greatest place in the world work. Let's
get a part of let's jump on that bandwagon.
Speaker 1 09:43
I'm curious about your perspective around how much of leadership is about quietly solving
problems and making trade offs versus some of the bigger, more visible decisions.
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Speaker 2 09:58
Looking back over my career and anybody. 80s, really, you're really the sum of all the small
decisions you make over time. It's not these one big, grand decisions, you know, like that's
going to create. You know, your success is, it's literally those daily habits. What do you do
every day? You know? Do you get up in the morning? Do you work out? I get up every morning
at 5am I'm in the gym by 530 or six you know. Do you have a routine you can get in that allow
you to focus on other things around you? And what are those decisions you're making? The
small ones you know? Do you stop and talk to somebody in the office or check on and see how
their day is going? Or do you go immediately into what looking at metrics and seeing how the
monies, you know, how the profit went for the week? What do you do every day that kind of
drives your behavior and your reality? So those little decisions add up over time and actually
make who you are as a leader. And so I believe in smaller decisions matter as much, if not
more, than the big ones when they come, because if you demonstrate a pattern of making
good small decisions. When that big one comes, you're going to be more confident, and you're
going to, you know, have the courage to make that decision.
Speaker 1 11:07
It makes so much sense, and there really is a compound effect to those repeated habits and
behaviors. You touched on the fact that you get up at five o'clock every day you're at the gym,
5:36am what is a typical day of those kinds of decisions look like for you, and what is the
broader context of a morning routine or series of predictable steps that you follow in order to
set yourself up for success?
Speaker 2 11:34
Sure, I mean, it's gonna sound crazy. I'm a little bit OCD. I will literally lay out my clothes the
night before, everything's all laid out in a pattern. When I wake up, we're going, yeah, so it
starts with the night before, laying out what I'm going to wear the next day, and laying out my
gym clothes back in my bags and all this. But you know, then you just get up and you go in,
you start your day. You know, after a great workout, I come out and I try to talk to folks in the
office to see how their day went, or see how their weekend went, depending on, you know,
when I'm there, I try to travel to every plant, every plant location. I'm in the air a lot, but, you
know, it's part of the job. But my day will start off literally in the gym, working out, then talking
to my folks, a handful of meetings. I try to create my day full of meetings, because I want my
calendar open so I can do anything I want when my as it comes available, I have an open door
policy so anybody can come in at any time. You know, you just got to stay flexible, but rigid
enough and with your scheduling to make sure that time matters, because you can't get back
that time.
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Speaker 1 12:34
And has this changed, this approach, in terms of making these kinds of decisions, how you
define success for yourself as a leader. What has changed in terms of the way that you view
leadership and your own experience of that over time?
Speaker 2 12:52
Yeah, I think the more people you see successful, is how I now look at my success as a leader. I
used to think it was okay the bottom line, you turn around the company, make a return for your
shareholders. That's true. That's all still there. But now, as I look back, I look at the people that
I've helped influence, either directly or indirectly, and are given a chance, given a job, given an
offer, given a chance, and see where they're at in their career. Are they successful? How did
they do, you know, how did they interact when they were faced with a tough decision, or if they
did get layoff, did they get right back in the saddle and try to get a job again? Or did they feel
sorry for themselves? How are they approaching or attacking life? And so I look at those that
I've influenced, and if, if they're now leaders, and you're taking more responsibility, I feel like
I've been a success, like whatever I did, whatever vibe I put out, or whatever, you know,
structure I put out, or whatever it was, somebody picked that up, and they were able to
incorporate that into who they are, and, you know, basically, be successful. So I look at their
the people around me, and if they've been successful or not,
Speaker 1 13:58
it's a great measure of success, something that you've spoken about is balancing hard
decisions with culture and accountability. What does that actually look like? Especially when
things get tough,
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Speaker 2 14:15
we all go through the economy, there's things you can't control, and so sometimes the
economy is booming. Sometimes it's not. Sometimes your industry is booming, sometimes it's
not. And so that requires different levels of decision making. Sometimes you have to make
tough decisions, like I mentioned earlier, when I first came into cabinet works, we shut down
three plants. You know, it costs jobs. So you have to literally let go of people. Have risks,
reductions in force, which are never easy. And then sometimes you get the easier ones, like,
Should we have a Christmas party this year or, you know, should we give an extra holiday for
our folks to, you know, go and celebrate with our families? Those are easy ones. Okay? And
then you have the hard ones. You just got to have the ability to balance that mix. If you make
too many of one or the other, you're not going to succeed if you're always cutting costs. If
you're always looking, you know, looking for that end of the business, you're not going to
succeed. If you're always trying to give, you're not going to be able to because you're going to
run out funds. So you got to, you got to find a good balance, or mix between those two tough
decisions and hard decisions, and then you got to have the stamina and the wherewithal to
actually make
Speaker 1 15:16
them. How do you actually find that balance? How? What is the measure of making the tougher
decisions versus the easier decisions, like, what? How do you actually assess whether that
actually feels balanced and is working? Well,
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Speaker 2 15:32
I first start with the impact it's going to have on those around me. Because if you think you
know, if I got a team member that works at cabinet works, for instance, you know that team
member maybe has a partner, and maybe they're married or has a partner. Well, they also,
also maybe have the kids. You know, maybe they have two kids, three kids. You know, you're
impacting your decisions. And then my head, I'm impacting five people right there by by
impacting this one individual. And then, you know, they shop in grocery stores, they go into the
economy. If they don't have jobs, they can't do that. So you're actually indirectly, your
decisions to either advance or let go of someone impacts multiple people, and you have to
couple, couple that with the fact that you also have suppliers that supply you. So if you're not
growing your business, if you're not making the right decisions, you're not buying as many
supplies from the supply chain. Well, they employ people, you know, just so if you're not buying
stuff from them, guess what? They can't run their factory. So it's this balance that continues
through through your mind constantly. And you know, I just my me personally. I read a lot. I
listen to podcasts, you know, probably like yours. I try to just stay up on any new, you know,
information say around your how your brain develops, especially over time. Like initially, when I
started, I would say I was like a hired gun. I had all this energy, and I was, you know, hours, and
I didn't care about working, you just get it done, and whatever it takes. And then, you know, as
I grew older, you know, got into my 50s, I was just like, wow, you know, okay, I can't keep at
this pace. If I keep this pace, I'm gonna burn myself out. Well, my intelligence kind of changed.
In a sense, it was still there. You know, earlier I was it was fluid, and later on in life, it kind of
solidified. And I started, I started gaining more wisdom, if you will, and then you start passing
that wisdom down, versus being the fluid stream that's always running, you start passing that
wisdom down. So I think you evolve over time in your leadership, from really being the person
that gets it done to being the person to make sure it gets done. So it's just a different evolution.
Speaker 1 17:42
And I think the key thing that I'm really hearing you share as well is that there's different
seasons of leadership as well. It's like what may have worked in a certain season of your career
and your leadership journey is not actually the type of approach that would actually serve you
or the people around you the best at this late stage, and so in in knowing yourself and being
able to become more solid in your own leadership style, there's a different level of confidence
and trust that is developed. And perhaps you don't need to be as reactive or agile or fast
paced, because the decisions that you're making are ones of longevity and a long term vision,
would that be like an accurate kind of assessment or or do you have a different
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Speaker 2 18:28
very much? No, very, very much. So you have to be flexible, right? Especially as you grow in
your in your leadership style, it's going to change based off every circumstance, every
circumstance, every season. It's going to be different and like I like you said, like I said, you
build a base over time, and you solidify that base. You get confident in that base, and you
make, you know, you make decisions. Most CEOs are more hard charging atop personalities.
Jokingly, I've been calling narcissists at time, but a good one, okay, okay, it's actually help
people. But you know, you got to have a little bit of that. You got to have a little bit of that. You
got to have a little bit of ego, a little bit of confidence, because, you know, you got to make that
decision and stick by it so there's nobody coming after you. There's nobody coming to rescue,
you know, me, it's
Speaker 1 19:11
me. And you've touched on this a little bit, but I would love to delve further into the way that
you're able to maintain trust and alignment when you're making those kinds of decisions that
may not benefit everyone. How do you actually, maybe it's a communication approach like,
what is the way that you're actually able to help bring people along for that journey and help
them see what the bigger picture is of the decisions that they may, may not be able to see yet.
Speaker 2 19:43
You know, there's a saying, if there is, you know, where there's no vision, you know, you perish,
basically. So you got to paint a vision that people can believe in. You got to paint a vision that
includes them in that vision. And then you set the plans, and, you know, lay that, lay this stage,
lay the groundwork to execute that. And it's about. Communication. Communication is key,
especially during any change requires more communication. I think you should constantly
communicate, but during change, you should be vigilant. You know at communicating. You
know, everybody has dreams, but dreams without plans are just dreams. They never come
true. And so as you as you dream, or if you set that strategy with with folks, individuals, a
team. You bring them along, you show them that, and you put in steps to get there and over
time, if you're executing is successful at that, you build somewhat of a reputation. Okay? He
does what he says, and we can trust him now. It may not be a good it might be a bad thing
currently, or maybe making some tough decisions. You know, it could be something I don't
want to hear, but when he says it, it's going to happen a good or bad. And so you build that
kind of rep, you know, that reputation with your folks, with your team. And it also helps having
people you've worked with. You know, I'll be honest with you, here at cabinet works, like I
mentioned earlier. I brought in over nine team members from my past, and so they right away,
when I walk into a room, they kind of know, kind of my style and what I'm going to want. They
already have an edge on me, in essence, you know, they have an edge on me, and they know
how to kind of handle me, in a sense, that helps get stuff done. But I'm running another
company, or helping run another company that I don't know anybody there, so I have to come
in and kind of show them a path and win their confidence versus my current team, I have their
confidence. So it depends.
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Speaker 1 21:26
What have you learned about how leaders show up in those difficult moments, and how that
helps to shape culture long term?
Speaker 2 21:35
What I've learned is leaders have to be present. They have to be on the floor, so to speak. You
know, at PGT, my offices were slowly right behind our biggest plant. And I'd make it a point to
go walk the floor, you know, see how people are doing. I made it a point to go driving trucks
and deliver windows, you know, it would be so funny. I wouldn't tell anybody I was coming. I
was I'm showing up at the warehouse of one of our dealers, and I'm smoking some panels off a
door and and then somebody will recognize me, no doubt. And then they'll go in, they'll grab
their own and they'll come out. I didn't know you were coming. You know, it's like you got to
show up, both for your team members and for your customers. And once they see you there,
and they see you, understand you're willing to roll up your sleeves. You know, they'll follow.
Anybody will follow you if you, if you show them, you're in it with
Speaker 3 22:19
them.
Speaker 1 22:19
And something that you touched on earlier is the fact that you're leading a major culture
transformation at cabinet works. What triggered the need for that shift?
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Speaker 2 22:30
You know, I would say past neglect the company that I'm currently running. It had been put
together over time. It was assimilation of various cabinet companies, and it changed hands. It
went, you know, from private equities to a public company to now private equity. So there was
confusion in leadership. When I got there, the former CFO said he had had five leaders in the
last 10 years. Okay, you know, I was leader at my last company for 20 years. So, you know, you
got that change in vision, change in direction, constantly. It confuses people. And then all of a
sudden, you know, you got somebody coming in, you know, is, can we trust this guy or not?
And initially the answer is, No, you can't, and you shouldn't, you know, you shouldn't trust
somebody straight out. You should use your gut and go with it and give them a chance,
because I've been there one. I want a chance. And once you earn that respect once you do
what you say, then you get the positive emails of, oh, okay, I've literally gotten emails that say
I hadn't seen a CEO that actually did this before, and this is from like, a 40 year employee who
sent me an email. Then you look back, you say, Okay, what we're doing is working. If you can
have a 40 year old tenured employee that's out there sees a change and a difference and
believes in the team that we've assembled. You know, then you know you're making strides,
and that culture is changing.
Speaker 1 23:48
And what are some of the tangible changes that you've implemented in order to embed those
values into daily behavior,
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Speaker 2 23:58
I would say all the way from making sure plants are properly lit. You know, people love to work
they're going to work in a place. So they love to work in an environment that that's friendly and
nice and bright and cheery and organized. And we our plants were not like that. So we've
literally relit all our facilities. And it's several million dollars to do. It's not cheap. It's not
changing down a lamp shade. It's major lighting projects. And all of a sudden, it's bright. All of a
sudden you can see what you're doing. You implement 5s or different lean six months, you
implement different processes that make the plant more organized, make it flow more
smoother. And then all of a sudden, are there equipments where it should be, or their tools are
where they should be. And so people feel better on the floor, physically on the floor, to rubber
mats on a concrete, you know, manufacturing floor, whatever it takes to really make that
environment friendly. All the way that that's physical, so all the way to giving back to the
employees, like I'd mentioned earlier, we opened up a healthcare clinic at our biggest facility,
free to their family. Families, their spouse, their kids can come, and they can come on their own
time. So in other words, they can be working and just not clock out, just if they're not feeling
good, then walk over, get an RN or a physician's assistants, whoever's there's the time to give
them assessment. And if you know, if they need a Z pack or whatever, we also provide that for
free. So we opened up our second one this year in Oregon, and we're going to open up our third
one in one of our locations at the end of this year. So we have three medical facilities, probably
again, free to all our employees and their spouses and kids, probably covering, I'd say, little
over half of our employees at this point. We still got got room to go, we got time to go, more
room and more things to do, but that's an example you you meet their need that you know is
an issue. Healthcare is an issue you know. It's an issue in the US. It's an issue overseas. It's an
issue everywhere, you know, and people don't realize it's really, it's really not up to the
government to cure healthcare. It's up to the employees, up to me, and that's I take that
ownership. So I want to help my folks. If health care is an issue, we make it not an issue. Or you
look at their retirement, you know, I mentioned earlier, we increase their retirement savings. I
encourage everybody to max out their pro on case, everybody should max that out. And one
thing I'm very proud of, we brought on board what we call a counselor. You can call it spiritual
counselor. You call it leadership counselor, or whatever, but he's been with me for, I'm gonna
say, 17 years now. He was at with me at the old company, so he came to this one. And we
provide coaching, we provide financial guidance and budgeting courses to help that you know
you budget your everyday expenses, or we will show up at a wedding or even a funeral,
unfortunately. And you know, we're there, you know, and this, this individual, is there for those,
whatever the need is. So you provide a resource for people to talk to. One of my favorites. One
has been the hourly bonus program. So at cabinet works, I did the same thing at PGT
innovations, we put in an hourly bonus program for our folks that aren't part of the annual
incentive plan, the salary folks, and that basically entailed them getting to earn money. Last
year, it paid out almost $3 million to the people. You know. You give somebody a $700 check.
That's, that's big, that's, you know, it makes Christmas, or that makes, you know, a bill they
needed to pay. And you make them a part of it is the goal, and we reward them for their
performance, because we win together, either we all win or we nobody wins.
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Speaker 1 27:26
And something that I'm really hearing is you're sharing all of this as well, is that there's
something so powerful about being able to take care of people's needs, and even if we were to
refer to something like Maslow's hierarchy of needs, that actually shows it's like when people's
basic human needs are taken care of, when their healthcare is taken care of, as you've touched
on, when their feeling of safety and security is taken care of, when you're actually providing
these kinds of services for them to work on themselves, their minds, their spirit, etc, they
actually perform at a higher level that they're happier, they're more productive. And there's so
many studies that actually showcase this exact thing. Was this something that just intuitively
came to you in terms of the way that these kinds of changes were identified and wanting to
actually, really take care of your team's needs in this, in this meaningful way.
Speaker 2 28:27
You know, I did it back to my childhood. I didn't have that as a kid. I just didn't have it. You
know, we didn't have good health care. You know, our we struggle to get by. You know,
retirement. You know, my, my parents used to worry about credit card bills and you know, all
this, they didn't know financially how to really have they were our they live paycheck to
paycheck, like most Americans do. And so I remember vividly going to buy groceries on Friday.
And I never as a kid, you know, are we going every Friday later on? As a no, we went Fridays,
because that's when they got paid. You know, that's when the paycheck literally came into the
bank. So, you know, you grow up like that, and I think in somewhere inside you, you think as a
kid, you know, if I can ever do anything about that, I'm going to do it. And you know, when I got
to where I could, I did
Speaker 3 29:15
it.
Speaker 1 29:15
That's a really powerful story. I thank you for sharing that. I do want to talk more about your
personal story, but I might save that for later, because I do want to stick to, you know, some
some of the concepts that I think are really important for us to unpack, and one of those things
is around Keeping customer at the center, and something that you've said is that you believe
the best business strategy is a happy customer. How does that mindset change decision
making across the organization?
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Speaker 2 29:56
I would say sometimes you will do stuff for a customer that. Doesn't make sense financially, on
that spot at that moment, you'd say, why would I? Why would I ship them a cabinet without
them really showing me the damage? Or, you know, with when it's not our fault, you just make
it your fault, and you just handle it. You just handle the problem. And that's the drive behind
what I call customer intimacy. That's that's a term out there, and we really live it. We want to
deliver our products on time, full and complete. But if there's an issue, we don't want a
homeowner suffering. We don't want you know if they're if they have a bad dealer or some on a
bad install or having a bad experience, I want that gone. I mean, I've, literally, I've gotten
emails from homeowners. They'll they can find you. You know, in today's world, anybody can
send an email to a CEO, not all of them will read them. I unfortunately do. It's part of that OCD
crap. So I read every email every day, and I clear them out at the end of the day. But anyway,
so you know, when a homeowner and I've had them, I had them this week sends me an email. I
make sure we get on it, and even if it's not our fault, I say guys, just fix it. I want this individual
praising cabinet works. I don't want them having a bad taste. Now, that's going to cost us
money initially, okay, but long term, it won't, and that's what I mean by putting that customer
first. If you put the customer first long term, it's going to pay your bills, not always up front.
There was one time at PGT we actually put a window on a plane. We're in a Cessna 172 and we
flew it across the state of Florida to make sure it got to that homeowner so they could get their
CO and finish out their house, draw out their house so they could get their CO
Speaker 1 31:37
Wow, that is a bug.
Speaker 2 31:39
So, you know, it's those extra little stuff that from a monetary standpoint, you know, my boss is
back then. What the hell are you doing? But long term, it pays off, or I wouldn't be obviously,
sitting here talking to you so
Speaker 1 31:51
and in today's environment, customers are more informed, and they're often further along in
that journey. How has that changed the role of a business and the way that you really approach
your customers
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Speaker 2 32:08
far more educated. You know, the internet and technology and search engines and AI, you can
literally find anything you want out there. You can find it where it's located. The best options
just ask chat, right, right. And so that whole knowledge base has made us more aware of our
brand equity. How do we go to market the products we're offering, how innovative we are, what
are we bringing to the market that people may be asking some AI chat bot about? Can we get
ahead of that, and then how we are positioning ourselves and our dealers to be successful, to
meet those needs, so we're constantly investing in that.
Speaker 1 32:44
And what would you say to CEOs or leaders that have a bit of a different perspective or view
that they think that their customers aren't educated, informed, intelligent, resourceful? What is
the message to them, or how would you advise them to start to think about their customer
needs?
Speaker 2 33:06
There's a difference between a message and what I'd say to them. First, I'd say they're full of
shit personally. But how would I advise them? Now, that's a different question. Okay, well, then
I would lay out what I've done personally over time and show the success I've had. I mean, it's,
you know, the customer should be first that well. And I tell my I preached a lot about my team,
you know, giving back to my employees and making sure they feel a part of the company. But
ultimately, I even tell them, Look, the customer pay allows us to do this. The customer allows
us to open up those healthcare clinics or fund the 401, KS, they allow that. And so, yeah, we're
living proof. And so I would, I would educate that individual over the importance of a customer,
your reputation, your brand, and how that affects everyone around you.
Speaker 1 33:52
I really appreciate that perspective. And I think that the days of, you know, it's like the the
dummy series. It's like, you know, this is for dummies. You know, I think those days are gone,
and I think that people that are still operating with that mindset are going to perhaps find out
the hard way. So thank you for sharing your take on that. What does it look like to, you know,
making it easy to do business with you. What does that actually require from an operational
perspective? You
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Speaker 2 34:25
know, it really starts with the what I call value chain. A lot of people call supply chain, but I view
it more as a value chain, because you're going to create value what you've been getting. It
starts with having the right suppliers, the right partners that can deliver products, quality
products that you're in, parts and components that you can then take and mold into a cabinet
that's going to be, you know, a dream. Look your kitchens, where you make your memories.
Think about where you cook your Thanksgiving meal or or your morning breakfast, or you have
your coffee or whatever. I mean, your kitchen is the heartbeat of the home. It's not somebody's
bedroom or a porch or a patty. It's the kitchen that's where people congregate and. Enjoy life
together. So we look at it as, how do we make that memory precious? And it starts with all the
components the supply chain. We got to have the right suppliers. It then goes with the right
designs. We got to the right designers and the state of the art, you know, designs and the
current trends and colors, colors are always changing, and so we want to stay on top of that.
But we want to give that experience, that advice to our to our end dealers. And then it starts
with, with how you treat your folks, you know, how do you package the product to, how do you
how do they build a product? How does the workflow, you know? How does it, literally, the plant
flow every day, and do we deliver on time and in full and complete, like, like I said earlier, and
then all the way to what dealers you align yourself with. You don't want just anybody installing
or selling your product. You want somebody that's reputable, that knows what they're doing. So
that end customer, you or myself as an example, that we have a great experience because
they're not their experience isn't directly with me. They deal directly with me when they have a
problem with a dealer that installed, I don't own that dealer, that those dealers are
independent. So you want to make sure that dealer base is aligned with your values as well, in
terms of how they treat their customer, their reputation and the quality of work they do. So it's
all the way through that that chain, you want to make it easy to do business with, from a dealer
standpoint, by from an innovative standpoint, like we came out with it, with a product called
tandem. It's basically a software that allows you to get all our products at a glimpse on one
tablet. Basically can go through order. It goes into the plant, flows through, the plant comes out
in production. Because, again, you want to be easy to do business with that dealer. You don't
want them thumbing through tons of pages of catalogs. You know, in today's technology, you
want them flipping through an iPad. And it'd be simple to order our product, and it'd be simple
to get confirmation. It'll be simple to get a time is going to be delivered. Just think about
everything you would want as you're ordering a product. We want that for our customers.
Speaker 1 36:59
Yeah, and how has the launch of tandem really enabled you to do that? Like, what has been
some of the initial feedback that's come through from that? Like, what have you really
observed since launching that into the business?
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Speaker 2 37:12
Well, it gives us a one kind of a one platform to merge our back offices, all our all our different
systems. Remember, I said we're a combination of a lot of different companies over time. So
you're you have different ERP systems as a result of that. And so you got all these ERP systems.
You want them to talk to each other. Because people, you know, I don't want to just sell one
brand. I want to sell multiple brands into a kitchen if they need it. I want to have a one stop
shop. Fits all well, not all brands carry the same products. So if somebody wants mainly a craft
made kitchen, but we don't have a hood that they wanted, but we had a hood in medallion or
another one of our brands, it needs to be seamless, and that order needs to flow seamlessly
that that process, that's an example of how tan can connect those plants and make it just flow
seamlessly. Make it easy for us to do that.
Speaker 1 38:00
Yeah, and a software platform like tandem is not a small undertaking. So what I would love to
know is like, what, what made you decide that you really wanted to invest in something like
this, that I imagine would take a lot of time, money, resources to actually be successful and be
what it needs to be. How did you know that that was something that was going to make the
kind of impact that it has?
Speaker 3 38:34
You
Speaker 2 38:35
know, it gets back to that core philosophy of customers, first, customers, intimacy and so how
do we, in essence, put fences around that customer so they don't want to go to somewhere,
somewhere else. And the ways you do that is you offer them technology is that they can order
your products through so that that that was the, I would say, the genesis of it, hack. How can
we order a product through all our systems? How can our customer, our dealer, easily order a
product through all our systems and get get it delivered on time, in full, in quality, and so. So
you want to, you want to offer that customer something your competition doesn't, and we view
that from an Order Entry System Platform to the programs. You know, discounts are different
promotions we do with the customers. Our different products will come out product launches.
We come out with customers. We want to put enough fences around that customer or
guardrails that no other competition can get in. Why would they ever leave? You know, because
it's so you know, it's so easy to do business with cabinet works. And, you know, the ordering
process is a part of that bigger picture.
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Speaker 1 39:38
And as roles evolve, what responsibility do you believe leaders have to prepare their teams for
the future of AI automation and so forth?
Speaker 2 39:49
Again, AI is going to change a lot. I think we're just at the beginning. But I keep telling people,
it's almost like I remember when the first cell phone came out. You know, I was in Silicon
Valley. Ali, working for KPMG at the time, and Apple was one of our consulting clients. I
remember when I got first got my big mac computer, and, you know, as a keyboard and a
separate hard drive, and the hard drive didn't have enough memory, so you loaded in Word,
and you had to switch out your document and then load in the numbers and switch and switch
and switch because and it had to build its memory into the computer. I mean, so, so people
thought computers were going to put people out of business. Well, they didn't look at, look at
what's happened since computer age, right? It's boomed. A lot of people think, oh, AI is going
to, you know, you know, change the world and put people, you know, create unemployment.
It's not. People will adjust, you know, people will adjust to the current economy, and there'll be
new opportunities created. So we look at AI as an advantage, you know. How can we use it to
better automate our plants, to better design a house? You know, can we take a picture of a
house, an interior of a house, and somehow have that into a program that automates and
produces a kitchen that is ready to assemble in that house? You know? How can we make it
easy to do that, and so we view AIS as an advantage, and we're trying to develop that over
time, but it's still relatively new.
Speaker 1 41:07
I want to go back to your personal story, something that I said I wanted to circle back on you
talked about growing up in rural Georgia with parents who had limited formal education, limited
resources.
Speaker 2 41:23
Yeah,
Speaker 1 41:23
I really want to ask you, I know you touched on this, but I'd love to ask you directly how that
experience of growing up really shaped the way you lead today.
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Speaker 2 41:33
You know, I would say it probably put a drive in me to try, try to do better. I was a CB student in
high school at best, my parents, God, got to love them. They wanted me to work. Basically,
after high school, they didn't want me to go college. You know, when, like, when I came to my
dad to say, I'm thinking about going to college, like, really, well, you got a job. You know, it
wasn't like a natural leap all three of my daughters who graduated from college. It was, you
know, so it's it made me want to change the environment which I was in, is what it did. And so,
you know, you start off, you know, you go into school, you're working your way through school.
My dad got me a job as a policeman, actually. So I was actually a policeman for a couple of
years there. I started out as security guard, ended up running radar in a patrol car. It was a
blast. But, you know, you got to grow up. And so at one point I looked at myself, my grades
were down. I just, actually just gotten married. I loped and got married. And when my wife met
me, my GPA was 1.9 All right? And I was on the verge of, you know, West Georgia College
asking me to consider another career. Okay? You know, maybe they was going to come to me
and say, Hey, maybe college isn't for you, but, but I've changed it, turned it around, changed
my major to accounting, and made all A's. And it was, it's been, it's been game on ever since
it's been game on. So you just have a drive to bring yourself up, bring yourself out, no matter
what it takes, going to school, sacrificing. People who sacrifice end up running the world.
Weren't in the country. So you sacrifice early on, no different than going to the gym. You know,
people go in the gym early work out. They're the folks that have better lives, better quality of
life. So, you know, it just takes sacrifice. And early on, I started that because I wanted to get
out of the, you know, current environment I was in. I wanted to do something different. And
college was the way to do that. And then KPMG after that,
Speaker 1 43:28
a lot of people that would have grown up in those kinds of circumstances may have had a very
contrasting mindset to the one that you have, which is, these are my current circumstances,
and therefore I don't see a different way forward. I don't see how this could change, and
perhaps end up defaulting to whatever their environment is. What do you believe it was within
you that sparked that fire or that drive to say, I want something more. I want something
different.
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Speaker 2 44:01
I think it was a combination of, you know, if you get, you know, when people don't believe in
you or doubt you, you want to prove them wrong. Okay, you know when you coming up humble
and, you know, I'll never forget my first job with KPMG in San Jose. I, I was in a class of 20
people start group, and it was up or out. I mean, you know, they they call the bottom 25%
every year. You know, it was, it was, it was fun, but it was brutal. But, you know, I looked
around. I'll never forget I looked around. I'm from West Georgia College, and not even a full
University at the time. And there were people there from Harvard, Yale, Stanford, right down
the road. That was the big school, Santa, Clara, UC Berkeley, all these, all these, we're going
around telling our schools and stuff, but I can tell you two things about me stood out. One, I
had a southern accent, so everybody loved to hear me talk. And the second one, I could
outwork anybody in that in that room. So I combined both those two, and ultimately, by the end
of my senior year, I was the highest ranked senior in the you know. In the company. And it was
success after that. I mean, I saw I could do it. I saw I could compete with with anybody. And so
it's just a drive to, you know, to do something different. Early on, it was definitely my wife. We
got married early when I was still in college. She was one that encouraged me not to be a
policeman. For instance, she wanted to be me to be an accountant. And, you know, I was
blessed also to realize that initially I don't have this as much as I used to, but I had a great
photographic memory. So early on I could, like, remember stuff for like, up to six months just
by looking at it. Now it's probably gone after a few days, but, you know, that's that was a curse
and a blessing. One, it got me through school. I finally made all A's. But secondly, I actually, I
didn't learn. I didn't learn till I was like, physically on it. And so that's when I learned. How do I
succeed? I succeed with my hands. I need to go physically look at something, physically look at
a job, physically look at a paper or a process, and then I can learn it quickly. So I learned that
about myself, and you start learning these little nuances, and you start then taking advantage
of those to succeed. And so I did, yeah,
Speaker 1 46:08
thank you for sharing that. You've also mentioned lessons like doing whatever it takes and the
power of the second chance. How have those shown up over the course of your career.
Speaker 2 46:22
Early on, I was still in San Jose. I think I was a senior, maybe I was, I was just making manager, I
can't remember, maybe a supervising
Speaker 3 46:29
senior.
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Speaker 2 46:29
And there was a guy named Gordon Walsh who really believed him. He put me on all his jobs. I
asked him why at one time, and he said, Jackson, you do whatever it takes. You know, I ask you
to go freaking load a truck in my car and you go do it, or I ask you to go figure out, you know,
why these accounts receivables aren't balancing right, and do we need some more reserves?
You will figure out that. So he and he said, You know, I like that. And he said, You should always
just do whatever it takes. He said, I'll fix a fax machine, or go talk to a CEO. Just, just do it, you
know, make sure you can do whatever it takes. And so I took that and I ran with it pretty much
my whole career. And then the power of the second chance that really came in with my PGT
role when I first made president, CEO, you know that company? I was there 20 years. I came in
as CFO. I took it public in 2006 we went through the downturn, the rate housing downturn, and
so we had to do a lot of changes. Close plants, lay off people, a lot of tough times, but I
inherited a lot of responsibility as a result. So all of a sudden, at the age of, you know, 33 I'm
running, you know, four plants, five plants, 3000 people. I mean, it was a lot of stuff, quick as a
result. And, you know, you learn, you learn by baptism by fire, but I've found the more I could
learn and the more departments I can learn, I view it as a pyramid. So the longer that pyramid
could be, the higher that the tip of that pyramid could be. And so if you just put all the different
functions at the bottom of a pyramid, I got to hit them all. And so as I climbed that pyramid, I
had structure, and I could relate to most departments. So you know that second chance I got
given a second chance. And so at one point, I didn't believe in that. I believed in up or out,
because that's the way I was trained. Hired Gun. You come in and you know only the best, and
you know somebody's not doing it. Get rid of them. Well, another mentor of mine for the former
CEO there that ended up getting his job. Rod Hershberger, he said, Not Jeff, you got to give
people a second chance. You don't know what's going on in their lives. You know, they could be
just having a bad day or personal issue or whatever. And you know, he was right. So I started
giving people more second chances. I used to pull the trigger quick. And so I found the older I
got, the harder that was getting to do, getting, you know, becoming and so when he told me
about giving people a second chance, I really jumped on that. And so I try to, you know, if
somebody's struggling with their job or something, I try to, you know, move them to a different
location, or give them some education, give some counseling, give some coaching, but they
have to ultimately do it. I'm still pretty much of a what I would say, a hard ass at times if they
don't do it, you know, it's ultimately gonna be on them, dude, I helped you. I tried to help you
now, you know, but most people just need that little second chance. That's all they need.
Speaker 1 49:11
It's such a powerful perspective. I really enjoyed hearing your take on that. Thank you. Now we
have a closing tradition here at CEO behind the scenes, and we love to ask the same two
signature questions at the end of every episode. So the first question I wanted to ask you is,
what is one thing you've changed your mind about recently, and why
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Speaker 2 49:42
the power of relationships? You know, I was going one way in a relationship, and I wanted it to
go a certain way, and it just wasn't going that way. And so I changed my mind about it, and
opened it up to a different path, a different thought process in that relationship. And it's it's
brought new, new enlightenment into my life. As a result,
Speaker 1 50:05
that's a really interesting one. And I really, actually, really like that a lot, because I have a
similar experience of learning through the fact that sometimes in relationship, it's very easy to
blame another person for what they're not doing. But in changing the way that you think about
it, you approach it, you lean into the challenges, it can actually significantly change the entire
dynamic of the relationship that sometimes one person can change a lot more than what we
realize.
Speaker 2 50:40
You're exactly right. You said it a lot better than me, though. No,
Speaker 1 50:43
I think you said it. You said it. So that is a really powerful shift. Thank you for sharing that. And
the second question is, what is one thing that you've not changed your mind about a belief that
you'd want to share, to help others lead or live better.
Speaker 2 51:04
I'd have to say I had never changed my mind about how I feel about my daughters. I got three
incredible girls, and, you know, they've been the center of what I've tried to accomplish and do
in my life, my family in general, you know. And I always stay focused on ultimately, where I was
when I was young. Well, you know, don't let the, don't let the whatever, the CEO, the titles and
all that kind of stuff, fame, money, whatever you want to call it, get to you. So I try to stay
grounded, and I'm hoping I'll never change. I mean, I don't know how many people's drop cuss
words on your show. So you got me right now. I listened to a couple of your podcasts. I don't
think I've heard that yet, but I am who I am, and I don't want to change that base of who I am,
and part of that's what I love, the things in life I love, cherish, and I'm things, meaning people
and things, but experiences people. I don't want to change that. I've added to it, you know,
definitely added to it, but I want to change who I want, who I am,
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Speaker 1 52:07
staying true to the essence of who you are.
Speaker 2 52:10
See, there you go again. You always say it better than me. I should have interviewed you, and
you could have said exactly that.
Speaker 1 52:18
I'm just reflecting back to everything that I'm hearing. So you said it beautifully. Thank you.
Thank you, Jeff. I have just so enjoyed this conversation with you. Everything around your
personal story, to your career, the incredible work that you're doing with cabinet works, and
your leadership style as well. I think what really has stood out is your approach around putting
people first and not just saying that, but actually living and embodying and leading in that way
in a day to day basis, has led and continues to lead to so much success. So thank you so much
for joining me for this conversation.
Speaker 2 53:01
Oh, you bet I enjoyed it immensely. Thanks a lot great questions and obviously a great host.
Speaker 1 53:06
Thank you, Jeff, appreciate you being here with us.
Speaker 2 53:09
You bet
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Speaker 1 53:10
and to our audience. If you enjoyed this episode, then please be sure to rate, review and
subscribe to the show and also share this episode with someone who you know will deeply
value Jeff's incredible insights, wisdoms and stories that he so generously shared with us today.
Thank you so much for joining us, and we'll see you next time on CEO: Behind the Scenes.